Registration distict for Llangollen

[carolegif]

I have tried in vain to find Thomas Morris my great great grandfather's birth registration. He was born in LLangollen in 1839 and I know the name of his parents (John & Mary)and what his father did for a living (Gardener) but to no avail. After several erroneous certificates and fruitless searches where none of the above criteria match, I have not found anyone. I think Llangollen births may be registered in Oswestry which is in England and this is the problem. I would appreciate if anyone could help with this. Thanks!

[spudqueen]

Are you sure he was born in 1839? He is one year old when the census was taken in 1841, though of course it depends on when in the year he was born. His birthday could be the day before the census, making him just one, or the day after the census making him almost two!
Anyway, I suggest that you contact the local registry office
http://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/en-gb/DNAP-74ZL ST
who will be able to tell you where births were registered in 1839/1840.

[carolegif]

His birth varies from 1839 to 1841 which is common, however, when he was a boy the birth is given as 1839, it is only as he got older the date varied - after his second marriage he even got his place of birth wrong and put down where he spent most of his life rather than where he was born!
Many thanks for the link though, I will pursue this further. I live in a totally different part of the country which makes things more difficult.

[echokilo]

Have you tried to contact others looking for the same ancestor via genesreunited?

[spudqueen]

People didn't realise how important their answers were going to be in 100 years time so put what ever they liked down! It is/wasn't unusual for people to be economical with the truth regarding their age (I had a great aunt who managed to add 10 years to her real age, we only found out after she died!), and after all, no one remembers where they were born - just where they've lived!

[carolegif]

I had problems with ages before with my grandmother and great grandmother (Thomas's daughter). They both married men younger than themselves and knocked a few years off! I also found an ancestor who has 10 years difference! I may also try for his death cert and get answers from that as there is no sign of a marriage cert for either of his marriages - he must have been quite some guy!!

[Uglybloke]

Hi Carole,

I`ve checked and there was no Thomas Morris born in Llangollen (or Oswestry) in 1839. I`ve also tried various other spellings (Moriss, Morrisse, and Morriss). If you post his date of death, I`ll try that way. If the DOD was after 1865, it will have his age at death, and try to trace back to DOB.

[carolegif]

Thanks Uglybloke, I think he died in 1895 but I am not sure. By then he had married a Priscilla Cutler and was living in Liscard, Tranmere (now Birkenhead). He gave his birthplace as Tranmere later in life, but it was down as Tranmere when he was stll living with his parents. he is also registered as being born in 1840 and 1841, but I have found nothing there either.

[dot.hawkes]

The onus to registyer a birth when civil registration began in 1837 was on the local registrar, and there was no compulsion for many families to use the system, especially in rural areas where they were traditionally used to baptism to register the child fior parish relief. i would imagine in Langollen there was a strong non-conformist congregation actually. It wasn't until the 1850s that a system of fines were introduced to force people to register the child';s birth, from this time the indexes and records vastly increase as the threat of a fine certainly worked. This is wqhy many births seem to be missing from the index. I suggest you look foir the baptism in the CRO.

[carolegif]

Thanks dot,
This part of my tree is driving me crazy! I have traces all the other family trees to the 16th & 17th centuries. Thomas is my great grannies father and she looked after me when I was little but never talked about her family - they didn't then did they?
As Thomas was Welsh, I presume his family were "chapel" and that is the problem.

[Uglybloke]

Hi again Carolegif,

There were no deaths of a Thomas Morris in 1892-1895 which fit the age. There were not any marriages of a Priscilla Cutler during 1850 - 1895.

However I have found a Thomas Morris living with his Wife Ellen (no children) in 1881. He was born in Llangollen and Ellen was born in Bucks. He is noted as age 46 and she is 38. Would this fit?

[Uglybloke]

Hello again Carolegif,

Please ignore my earlier answer, i`ve now found Thomas & Priscilla in 1881. He is stated as being born in abt. 1839 in Seacombe Cheshire, and Priscilla was born in Fingley Worcs. They have 4 children, Arthur 15, Mary 13, Amy 7 and Lillie 1.

It looks like Priscilla died 1885 in Birkenhead and Thomas died 1891 also Birkenhead. i`ve not been able to trace the children after this.

[carolegif]

Thanks Uglybloke,
Thomas was married first (no record) to Sarah Knox and was living in Tranmere in the 1871 census with his daughters Mary E (3) and Sarah (4m) who was my great grandmother, I know this because I have her birth cert. I traced him back living with his father John and his mother Mary where he is listed as being born in Llangollen. In the 1881 census he is living with Priscilla (nee Cutler and then Summers - she was a widow), her son Arthur (who took his surname), several other children and another mother and son (husband is away at sea), but has put his birthplace down as Seacombe (Birkenhead). I can even show you a picture of the house they all lived in!
Thomas moved to Tranmere when he was very young, so I suppose he thought he was born there by this time. It is just his birth that I can't find, it is listed variously as 1839 or 1841. In the 1841 census, his age is given as 1 yrs.
Thanks again for all your help, I was not sure of the deaths, but you have confirmed them for me.

[carolegif]

Further to the above
Priscilla was born in Langley - enumerator error and her daughter Amy should be Annie and I think she was also a child of Priscilla's firsr marriage to George Cutler.
I did find a Thomas Morris living as a boarder in a house in Birkenhead in the 1991 census, but I am not sure if it is the same man
Thanks

[Iolanthe]

Use Google to find these sites. Because of the area, try putting a message on the Rootsweb - Clwyd message board, and you may find someone who has copies of the Llangollen parish records for Baptisms. Most people had their children baptised at that time, usually close to the date of birth, but sometimes they did several children in one go, some years later than the birth. Clwyd Family History Society publish these in booklet or microfiche form.

You could also try North Wales BMD which have records not always transcribed on other BMD sites. There is also the possibility that the birth was not registered - not compulsory in 1839, so there might not be a birth certificate available. The local Superintendent registrars are normally quite helpful if you give them some facts, and want to check if you've found the right family.

[Iolanthe]

I've just had a look on Free BMD and there is a Thomas Morris as below. Wrexham covers the area you mention.

Births Jun 1839 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morris Thomas Wrexham 27 277

[carolegif]

Thanks Iolanthe, but this isn't him as I have already got this birth cer. I have got his second wife's death certificate but her son was present and Thomas Morris is entered as a Cooper (Journeyman) which means he was travelling. I got the death cer that Uglybloke suggested, but this was not him either!
I will go the Clwyd route and BMD. I have found his older brother and sister's christening on the Mormon site, but none of the others. I can trace his brothers' families to the same area of Tranmere on the census where they moved to in the 1840's, but nothing registered for Thomas who was the youngest.
I will keep lookin

[Aqualegia]

I have relatives born in Llangollen later in the 1800's (not Morris tho!) and the registration district for the birth was Corwen in Merioneth & Denbigh (1871). Might help :-)

[carolegif]

Thanks aqualegia, I will keep on looking, I am determined not to be beaten!