Your thought on this please.

[Lonnie]

My daughter is at the extreme end of the Autistic Spectrum, does not speak, and understands around a dozen one syllable words, she is very active, (24 years old), and goes to a Day Centre Monday to Friday, they use our cart, she is two to one, Problem is, one carer drives, the other also sits in the front of the car.

We, her parents, have always asked that the non driving carer sits in the back, so she can keep an eye on my daughter, but they don't, they have sat her behind the passengers front seat, and put a harness on her, so that she can't reach the driver, (understanable), as her way of asking for her music to be played, is to scratch the drivers shoulder.
However, as she can't reach the driver with her hand, she tries it with her foot.

We have always said, that if a carer sits in the back, they can stop her, but they still don't.
(She does not hit out in any shape or form, so there is no danger to the carer if she was to sit in the back with her.

What has now happened, is that the Health and Safety for the Centre, hve said that we must change the car for a bigger one, in their words, a 'seven seater', we are fighting this, but if we lose, and don't change the car, they can say they can no longer look after her.

I have the H&S report, and that is the only reason given,

I don't know the law regarding this type of thing, but if one of the carers was to sit in the back, it wouldn't be neccessary. Surely.

I was wondering what you might think of this, and if anyone knows what the legal side might be, that would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

[chinadog]

Lonnie, all I can help you with is,in all the years our daughter was at special schools she had minder in the back. The minder would sit in the middle of the kids to make sure both were okay. Even though there was a seat at the front unless there was another quieter pupil it was never used. If I were you I would get onto LEA. How the heck can they refuse to look after your daughter,thats cruel and out of order. and all because they say you need a 7 seater,why? Another place you could try is a law centre,no cost just advice.

[naomi24]

If I understand you correctly, they want you to get a 7 seater car so they can sit your daughter further back from the driver? I don't know how you stand in law, Lonnie, or even if the law says anything about such an issue, but it sounds pretty unreasonable to me. Is it a council run Day Centre? If so, can you speak to the head of Social Services in your area?

[cazzz1975]

does she have a communication system she uses in the day centre? a picture or object based one?

if she has nothing to use she will resort to physical methods, how does she normally communicate her needs?

[chinadog]

Hi Lonnie, I'm chinadog's son in law and I work as a team manager in an autisitc college, specialising in challenging behaviour. As far as I'm aware it comes down to the day centres individual policies and procedures and her individual transport risk assessment which would specify seating requirements when in a vehicle. there are no definative care standards directives around seating positions. has she got a history of challenging behaviour both when in and out a vehicle? this would be the only real basis for the need for a 7 seater, For them to change the seating requirements for her, there would need to be a reason for this, such as recent incidents of challenging behaviour, as you have stated, she doesn't hit out in the vehicle so I imagine this is unlikely.

What kind of communication systems are they currently using with her in the day centre? Most communication systems are easily adaptable and transferable to most situations so there must be a way to aid her communication when in a vehicle. As for them saying they wont be able to support her in the future, without sufficeint evidence specifying the need for the vehicle change, they dont really have a case. Does she have an advocate or social worker who would fight this? Otherwise it could come under the disability discrimination act. The health and safety report must outline a justifiable need for these changes. As for them sitting in the back of the vehicle, again this would come down to the day centres own policies and procedures and it is difficult to fight against those,

Hope you get some luck

[Lonnie]

I'd first like to thank each of you for your responses, most informative, and i'm most grateful.


chinadog, i'll incorperate my reply to you, in with your son in laws.

naomi, The reason they specified a seven seater, is so she can't reach the driver with her foot.
When I take her out, as I do every evening, I sit her behind me, so when she wants her music on she puts her hand on my shoulder, the left one, when she wants it changed, again, she put her hand on my shoulder, when she wants quiet, she pulls my left elbow, (gently), so I can understand why they sit her in the seat behind the passengers seat, and as they have her in a harness, she tries to communicate with the driver with her foot,

She is generally a very gentle, if very active person, and if the secon carer was to sit with her, this person would be directly behind the driver, she could stop her just by placing her hand on my daughters leg, and a stern no, she responds to voice tones.

There is another issue which I never mentioned, she compartmetalises everything, and as I said, they use a harness, a couple of months ago, she tried to put her seatbelt on, this was not noticed, (both carers being in the front), she got it wrapped round her neck, and almost Garotted herself.

cont

[Lonnie]

cont

The Day centre is a pivate one, as the local council one is not suitable for her, that was agreed both by them and us, so locally, the one she goes to is the only one available.

And it is, in my mind, very unreasonable,

Steve.5, yes, your right about the transport, however, when they demanded the car, (no other word for it), they were backed up by the then Social Worker, on behalf of the Social Services, and when it happened, they had
decommissioned on of their minibuses,and the then manager of the centre actually said they were doing away with the running cost,
The only concession we got, was that Social Services pay for the petrol the centre use.

cazzz1975, she has only grown mentally, approx one month for every year she's been alive, so in effect, she's a twentyfour year old autistic toddler.
They don't work with her in the centre because she's so active, always running about, and over the years, she's learnt to use adults as tools, and use her body strength to push or pull adults to get what she wants, so the fear in the centre, is that she may inadvertantly harm on of the less able clients, so the only time she's in the centre now, is for her midday meal, then out again.

For chinadog and chinadogs son in law, who I appreciate very much for coming on here, and a special thanks to you chinadog for referring this post.

As far as the centres policies on this are concerned, I must confess, I don't as yet know, but we have asked for, and are getting a meeting at the centre, which will also include the head of our local Social Services.
I am also going to consult Disability Law, because I know, with the Ambulance Service, regardless of the severity of the patient, someone has to be in the back of the ambulance with the patient.
I don'r know if the same criteria applies, but its worth finding out.

cont

19:11 Sat 02nd May 2009

[Lonnie]

cont

Challenging behaviour in the vehicle,
Only, as i've mentioned, this business with her foot.
She is a very accepting young lady, inasmuch as, she doesn't like change, so in her mind, if a carer sits in the back with her, she tries to push her out, because in her mind, she should be in the front. However, as I pointed out, she is gentle, and i've said to the centre, if a carer sits in the back etc on Monday, by Friday she would have accepted it as normal,

My arguement is that, my daughter is a young lady that needs watching almost every waking minute of the day, and two carers sitting in the front of the car can't do that, and an example would be that the incident I put in my reply to naomi.
Communication, this also is a sore point, because they can't while in the front, my daughter loves being sung to, but i've asked if they do this, and they dont, so she sits in the back of the car, alone, and listening to the carers converse to themselves, which she obviously hasn't a clue what they are saying.

As for an Advocate, thats a distinct possibility, and the Social Worker she has is new, but she'll be coming to that meeting, (when I get a date).

I hadn't thought about the disability discrimination act., I'll check it out.

Many thanks to you all fo you answers.

They are very much appreciated.

[chinadog]

Lonnie I'll forward this onto my son in law Rhys so he can have a read. My daughter's got an advocate and she's helped loads. Google Advocacy Matters.co.uk. Good luck China.

[Lonnie]

Many thanks China, i'll do that.