ChatterBank1 min ago
The UK -that unjust place
7 Answers
It seems that we have become again a place of aristocracy and lower classes. Unless you have financial support from well-off parents then it seems impossible for young people to get ahead. I mean university has become so expensive that students from poorer students just must saddle themselves with huge amounts of debt and then will not get a job at the end of it -unless they do medicine! And I heard former deputy PM say on the programme the North/South divide that the government had cancelled apprenticeships with one student lamenting that he couldn't do a plumber course because it would cost £11,000.
It's not fair. The banks owe us money. The UK needs changed.
It's not fair. The banks owe us money. The UK needs changed.
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I think Geezer the point is that the UK economy competes on innovation and value add - not on cheap manufacture.
That relies on a well educated skilled workforce
Reducing the size of that workforce by making tertiary education more expensive hamstrings our ability to compete in the world.
So people are discussing raising tuition fees at Universities whilst tens of billions of pounds worth of debts are being absorbed that were run up by people who were running an overblown gambling den.
Unfortunately the argument has been somewhat overstated - we have places for a lot of other graduates outside of medicine - but the underlying point is valid.
Unless we are careful we will turn into America where access to the best Universities is less on merit than on the depth of your pockets - and that wouldn't be good for anybody
That relies on a well educated skilled workforce
Reducing the size of that workforce by making tertiary education more expensive hamstrings our ability to compete in the world.
So people are discussing raising tuition fees at Universities whilst tens of billions of pounds worth of debts are being absorbed that were run up by people who were running an overblown gambling den.
Unfortunately the argument has been somewhat overstated - we have places for a lot of other graduates outside of medicine - but the underlying point is valid.
Unless we are careful we will turn into America where access to the best Universities is less on merit than on the depth of your pockets - and that wouldn't be good for anybody
puflete....a good point.
50yrs ago whatever your social standing i,e working or middle class, you could go to University with a grant which was means tested. Students of poor background could study for a B.A, BSc, Law degree and Medical Degrees without fear of going into debt. This was under Labour Governments and Conservative Governments. The drop out rate was almost nil. You worked hard, one got a degree and then you went out into the world to a good salary and a high standard of living which you had worked hard for.
Now, in the last 10years, the rich have got richer and the poor have got poorer, almost anybody can attend a degree course in subjects that are obscure and in which there is little call for. The drop out rate is high and they qualify with an loan of up to £20,000 and no chance of suitable employment.
Puflette......I do not know what has caused this change but i would hate to put Political reason for this change.
50yrs ago whatever your social standing i,e working or middle class, you could go to University with a grant which was means tested. Students of poor background could study for a B.A, BSc, Law degree and Medical Degrees without fear of going into debt. This was under Labour Governments and Conservative Governments. The drop out rate was almost nil. You worked hard, one got a degree and then you went out into the world to a good salary and a high standard of living which you had worked hard for.
Now, in the last 10years, the rich have got richer and the poor have got poorer, almost anybody can attend a degree course in subjects that are obscure and in which there is little call for. The drop out rate is high and they qualify with an loan of up to £20,000 and no chance of suitable employment.
Puflette......I do not know what has caused this change but i would hate to put Political reason for this change.
Well sqad I think you are wrong about the obscure courses - not that they exist - but that they are new.
They have changed. The new obscure course have replaced old ones - how many scholars of obscure classicism were there "in the old days"?
How did a dissertation on the relationship between ancient Sparta and ancient Athens prepare you for a job?
The old answer used to be that academic discipline trained the mind in whatever subject and made you a more rounded person.
This is probably still true - what has changed is that people no longer leave University and stay in a job for a decade - they move more. As a consequence companies are less willing to invest time and money in training and want people who can "hit the ground running"
It is this social change which is hitting the obscure (and not so obscure) courses.
We are probably poorer as a society - the breadth of our combined background knowledge shrinks as a result but change happens and where there is not enough value those course will shrink in numbers and die.
What is worrying is when core subjects like Chemistry find it hard to get enough bums on seats - if we turn in to a country full of PR consultants and no Chemists or strategic capability is weakened and that can't be left to Darwinian selection
They have changed. The new obscure course have replaced old ones - how many scholars of obscure classicism were there "in the old days"?
How did a dissertation on the relationship between ancient Sparta and ancient Athens prepare you for a job?
The old answer used to be that academic discipline trained the mind in whatever subject and made you a more rounded person.
This is probably still true - what has changed is that people no longer leave University and stay in a job for a decade - they move more. As a consequence companies are less willing to invest time and money in training and want people who can "hit the ground running"
It is this social change which is hitting the obscure (and not so obscure) courses.
We are probably poorer as a society - the breadth of our combined background knowledge shrinks as a result but change happens and where there is not enough value those course will shrink in numbers and die.
What is worrying is when core subjects like Chemistry find it hard to get enough bums on seats - if we turn in to a country full of PR consultants and no Chemists or strategic capability is weakened and that can't be left to Darwinian selection
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