ChatterBank1 min ago
Climbers///amhskunert had a point.
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Unfortunitely the thred's closed but I think sum peopl.e were a bitt hard on amhskunert. It looks 2 me like s/he was pointing out the dangerous risks thees poor poeple took. Thats it. I feel sorry for the famyles that the dead men were from. But s/he didnt say much difrent.
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Ahms
JNO IS SPOT ON BELOW
""you call the recently deceased d!ckheads and you're surprised when others reply in kind? Then you pretend your own posts were mild and reasonable, when they're there for all to see? If you want to abuse the dead, go ahead, it's a free country. Just don't pretend it never happened.""
It sums up my point in your closed thread - respect and politeness goes a long way and your chance of persuading others would be much enhanced !
JNO IS SPOT ON BELOW
""you call the recently deceased d!ckheads and you're surprised when others reply in kind? Then you pretend your own posts were mild and reasonable, when they're there for all to see? If you want to abuse the dead, go ahead, it's a free country. Just don't pretend it never happened.""
It sums up my point in your closed thread - respect and politeness goes a long way and your chance of persuading others would be much enhanced !
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Now that I'm sober, unlike when I posted this thread, sorry about dreadful spelling etc, I've been monitoring the answers and I'm quite appalled at some of the hostility towards ahmskunnirt who, it seems, has tried reasonably to explain his opinions, but to very little avail.
Now I don't know how many on here have actually taken the time and trouble to read the links he added. I have and they make very interesting reading.
One of them from 7 Dec 09 entitled Safety Warning Issued To Climbers says "enthusiasts should check forecasts", and "10 out of 20 deaths in the mountains last year happened in winter". and "the avalanche information centre will start publishing reports and forecasts for.....Lochaber........from 17 December".
On 31 Dec the Scotsman newspaper reporting the deaths said "The avalanches.........followed a warning from experts". and "Sportscotland Avalanche Information Service (SSAIS) had been warning of danger on the hills caused by the recent snow".
I also looked online and found the SSAIS website (see link) which, among other info, stated in its Avalanche Hazard Forecast for the fateful day "Human triggered avalanches possible". and another brief extract says "the avalanche does not know you are an expert". http://www.sais.gov.uk/index.asp
It's only fair to at least listen to reasoned debate and I get the strong impression here that too many people have let their emotions get the better of them without considering the information provided. It's very easy to get carried away when such a tragedy strikes, but just because ahmskunnirt has called the dead mens judgement into question is no reason to give him such a hard time. He has also expressed sympathy.
Now I don't know how many on here have actually taken the time and trouble to read the links he added. I have and they make very interesting reading.
One of them from 7 Dec 09 entitled Safety Warning Issued To Climbers says "enthusiasts should check forecasts", and "10 out of 20 deaths in the mountains last year happened in winter". and "the avalanche information centre will start publishing reports and forecasts for.....Lochaber........from 17 December".
On 31 Dec the Scotsman newspaper reporting the deaths said "The avalanches.........followed a warning from experts". and "Sportscotland Avalanche Information Service (SSAIS) had been warning of danger on the hills caused by the recent snow".
I also looked online and found the SSAIS website (see link) which, among other info, stated in its Avalanche Hazard Forecast for the fateful day "Human triggered avalanches possible". and another brief extract says "the avalanche does not know you are an expert". http://www.sais.gov.uk/index.asp
It's only fair to at least listen to reasoned debate and I get the strong impression here that too many people have let their emotions get the better of them without considering the information provided. It's very easy to get carried away when such a tragedy strikes, but just because ahmskunnirt has called the dead mens judgement into question is no reason to give him such a hard time. He has also expressed sympathy.
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ORCADIANOIL: ///I also looked online and found the SSAIS website (see link) which, among other info, stated in its Avalanche Hazard Forecast for the fateful day "Human triggered avalanches possible". and another brief extract says "the avalanche does not know you are an expert". http://www.sais.gov.uk/index.asp///
Lets take this in context - on visiting the site you mention, you will see that this pertains to a "MODERATE" risk (The levels are: Low, Moderate, Considerable, High and Very High) http://www.sais.gov.uk/hazard-scale.asp
Doubt that this would put off many professional climbers.
AHMSKUNNIRT: ////They were both highly experienced and well equipped, but were caught in the wrong place at the wrong time." Why was that? Did they simply ignore or disregard the forecast? ////
Exactly the point - you do not know and are making suppositions. You have very much implied that these people are 'idiots' and questioned their judgements without having any experience in their field or knowing much about mountain climbing.
It is easy to criticise an event after it has happened, but you simply don't know all the facts but still insist on arguing the point. You accuse climber123 of not adressing your points, but all you say to jno is "I respect your reply" without addressing their point so just for clarity's sake:
In your question you ask if the dead climbers were 'victims or idiots' - and you don't seem to think they were victims. So - do you think they were idiots? You didn't offer any other alternatives.
Lets take this in context - on visiting the site you mention, you will see that this pertains to a "MODERATE" risk (The levels are: Low, Moderate, Considerable, High and Very High) http://www.sais.gov.uk/hazard-scale.asp
Doubt that this would put off many professional climbers.
AHMSKUNNIRT: ////They were both highly experienced and well equipped, but were caught in the wrong place at the wrong time." Why was that? Did they simply ignore or disregard the forecast? ////
Exactly the point - you do not know and are making suppositions. You have very much implied that these people are 'idiots' and questioned their judgements without having any experience in their field or knowing much about mountain climbing.
It is easy to criticise an event after it has happened, but you simply don't know all the facts but still insist on arguing the point. You accuse climber123 of not adressing your points, but all you say to jno is "I respect your reply" without addressing their point so just for clarity's sake:
In your question you ask if the dead climbers were 'victims or idiots' - and you don't seem to think they were victims. So - do you think they were idiots? You didn't offer any other alternatives.
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Ahms,
your quote "You have to assume that anyone attempting such weather either doesn't care about the consequences or simply has NO BRAINCELLS ! I feel sorry for the MR .....it's asking a bit much of people to root around in such adverse conditions for some D!CKHEADS ! who should have known better."
your quote "... I don't DELIBERATELY set out to annoy or upset.... " - no not deliberately
your quote "I care about my fellow man as much as any of you on here but for me to offer sympathy in the face of UTTER STUPIDITY ....."
R1Geezer post re "... I don't deliberately set out to annoy or upset.... " But you do, your first instinct is usually a negative, na na nana na, type comment. You usually do not answer the question but attack some part of it.
your quote "I care about my fellow man ...... but for me to offer sympathy in the face of UTTER STUPIDITY ...."
So as well as being UTTERLY STUPID, according to you, the deceased climbers have also demonstrated "recklessness" and "crass decision making" . Even the title of the other thread is provocative at best and verging on insulting. When people highlight your disrespectfulness and offensivenes you don't like it and persist in an indefensable defence.
Referring to these deceased men as "IDIOTS" - Don't think you can admit that you have overstepped the mark. I hope you wont continue to attempt to justify the unjustifiable. ABers can come across in ways they don't intend and end up digging themselves a deeper hole. Ahms, you know you've been disrespectful and offensive as evidenced above, so please just let it go and stop digging and have a HAPPY NEW YEAR !
your quote "You have to assume that anyone attempting such weather either doesn't care about the consequences or simply has NO BRAINCELLS ! I feel sorry for the MR .....it's asking a bit much of people to root around in such adverse conditions for some D!CKHEADS ! who should have known better."
your quote "... I don't DELIBERATELY set out to annoy or upset.... " - no not deliberately
your quote "I care about my fellow man as much as any of you on here but for me to offer sympathy in the face of UTTER STUPIDITY ....."
R1Geezer post re "... I don't deliberately set out to annoy or upset.... " But you do, your first instinct is usually a negative, na na nana na, type comment. You usually do not answer the question but attack some part of it.
your quote "I care about my fellow man ...... but for me to offer sympathy in the face of UTTER STUPIDITY ...."
So as well as being UTTERLY STUPID, according to you, the deceased climbers have also demonstrated "recklessness" and "crass decision making" . Even the title of the other thread is provocative at best and verging on insulting. When people highlight your disrespectfulness and offensivenes you don't like it and persist in an indefensable defence.
Referring to these deceased men as "IDIOTS" - Don't think you can admit that you have overstepped the mark. I hope you wont continue to attempt to justify the unjustifiable. ABers can come across in ways they don't intend and end up digging themselves a deeper hole. Ahms, you know you've been disrespectful and offensive as evidenced above, so please just let it go and stop digging and have a HAPPY NEW YEAR !
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Oh Ahms, you're the epitome of tenacious,
"olddutch, Your post reminds me of the old American gangster films where the cops nick one of the supposed bad guys, sit him down, blind him with the spotlight right in the eyes, and then kick seven bells out of him until they get the answers THEY want." ----- Oh Ahms youre probably not a bad guy, I would never kick you - or blind you - but i might suggest you sit down and have a rest - but I dont think, for a moment, you (as a veteran AB streetfighter) ever would.
"No amount of badgering from you, or anyone else, no amount of attempting to put words into my mouth, no amount of vitriolic rhetoric, or bullying, will entice me to answer in any way except my own. And if you don't like that, you know what you can do?" ----- Oh again Ahms, you nearly slipped up again here, but to your credit, you just about held on to it - As for vitriol, bullying, coercion,badger baiting, extraordinary rendition or Spanish Inquisition, please, I've my white knight reputation to maintain, championing respect and inoffensiveness remember (bit like Batman except he was a Dark Knight)
"PS: Enjoy your "inflated" public transport trips around London - hee, hee, hee." ----- Ahms, youre not going to like this but I genuinely, no kidding, cross my heart, dont live in London - but I wont be crowing "hee hee hee". Hope we're now agreed on respectful disagreement - have a good un !
"olddutch, Your post reminds me of the old American gangster films where the cops nick one of the supposed bad guys, sit him down, blind him with the spotlight right in the eyes, and then kick seven bells out of him until they get the answers THEY want." ----- Oh Ahms youre probably not a bad guy, I would never kick you - or blind you - but i might suggest you sit down and have a rest - but I dont think, for a moment, you (as a veteran AB streetfighter) ever would.
"No amount of badgering from you, or anyone else, no amount of attempting to put words into my mouth, no amount of vitriolic rhetoric, or bullying, will entice me to answer in any way except my own. And if you don't like that, you know what you can do?" ----- Oh again Ahms, you nearly slipped up again here, but to your credit, you just about held on to it - As for vitriol, bullying, coercion,badger baiting, extraordinary rendition or Spanish Inquisition, please, I've my white knight reputation to maintain, championing respect and inoffensiveness remember (bit like Batman except he was a Dark Knight)
"PS: Enjoy your "inflated" public transport trips around London - hee, hee, hee." ----- Ahms, youre not going to like this but I genuinely, no kidding, cross my heart, dont live in London - but I wont be crowing "hee hee hee". Hope we're now agreed on respectful disagreement - have a good un !
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