Listener

[rabet]

Is there no Listener discussion this week?

[Scorpius]

I’m afraid I don’t share the enthusiasm for this puzzle. My guess is that it was a chosen as an attempt to whittle down the all-corrects. It seems to be a vehicle for the setter’s virtuosity at grid construction, but offers little else of interest. One clue was interesting because of it’s thematic aptness, another one was interesting because of the misprint, but the overall experience was frustrating tedium from trying to cold-solve enough clues to see precisely what was going on. Even though It was obvious what the X factor was from the start, getting to the stage where a workable pattern emerged was long haul. At one point, having reached several grid impasses, I nearly gave up out of sheer boredom, but a stubborn refusal to be defeated, coupled with a desire not to drop further down the score card, kept me going to a conclusion that offers scant reward for all that hard work. If I had given up I wouldn't feel I'd missed much when I eventually saw the solution.

On top of other difficulties, the clue beginning “Slurp…” borders on the unfair in an unconventionally presented puzzle where every clue was particularly important and none had lengths indicated. Another clue could have passed as a normal clue, and it was some time after getting the answer that I realised a misprint was involved. A third has a container indicator that is dubious.

Next year I shall probably free myself from the shackles of the statistics, in which case I would stop solving a puzzle such as this long before the end and devote myself to something more satisfying.

[jamesah]

A real struggle with all the cold solving which I don't enjoy very much. The final grid doesn't seem entirely satisfactory to me. What works for some letters obviously doesn't for others so I'm not sure that X is completely achieved. I don't send in the answers so this doesn't matter much to me but how should each affected letter be written in? Presumably as it appears with the grid the normal way up? I don't understand Scorpius' reference o the 'slurp' clue which seems OK to me. I'm less sureabout the definition in the 'make charge' clue.

[daagg]

I'm not convinced that an unreasonable amount of cold solving was required. The sequence of answer lengths for the across clues is unusually constrained (notably: 6 letters at the top and bottom, 4 and 8 letters in the middle) so with only a few answers available I realised that the 10 (which I luckily had in my set of 6) could only go in 2 places. When I tried the first, it led pretty directly to the actual solution.

I'm intrigued by the definition of X, as I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist in any textbooks, although it has an obvious interpretation. I suppose it raises the issue that we really need some new term to describe the classic layout, as the conventional one is clearly wrong in the light of this puzzle.

[Ruthrobin]

Jamesah, I think not 'as it appears with the grid the 'normal' way up'. I think that you should enter all letters the way they appear in the word in question if you are entering in conventional clue order. This works perfectly with all checked lights, and the others don't matter. It also makes the whole thing very easy and more or less justifies the X

[Mysterons]

Jamesah - you must enter the 17 answers in their correct lights, turn the grid through 90 degrees, repeat the process, and do that twice more - the grid will then be filled with letters in various orientations.

[tristram37]

There appear to have been two threads for this puzzle this week, and since my only way in is to Google Listener followed by the puzzle's title I couldn't access it until Kayakamina kindly put the link in the other thread. If there's another way in I should be glad to hear of it. As for the puzzle there was too much cold-solving for my liking, in spite of what daagg says. I nearly abandoned it and even when I'd solved most of the clues entry into the grid seemed impossible until the PDM when everything sort of fell into place. Even then I wasn't sure the solution was unique until I re-examined the first sentence of the preamble, which at first seemed to be nonsense, but which I think resolves things uniquely.

[Cruncher]

Well Mysterons, that pretty much spells it out. Do you not want to post a sample solution as well?

[Philoctetes]

Got there eventually, and less than thrilled. I think more could have been done with the manipulation of the material (such as in the penultimate clue). Still, leaves the rest of the week free for anything that crops up
Happy Christmas everyone!

[JackDeCrow]

Well, I agree about the hard slog, but I must confess to finding the completed grid strangely pleasing. Couldn't help but notice, though, the proportion of clues that were almost completely proof against optimistic searching on chambersreference.com. Could be the start of a fight back against the technology by the compilers?! Merry Christmas all !

[Clamzy]

As usual I crossed the finishing line about 48 hours after everyone else, but got there safely I think. It may be a headache for JG to check, but I found it one of those where there is not much doubt when you have a correct grid. Thanks to those who have expressed Christmas greetings and I wish to add my own.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, I have to agree with Cruncher. When we join this thread, we are warned that the 'Listener watchdog' will snarl if we give direct answers to questions. Only hints to solvers who already see where they are going are tolerated. I just found the other thread that is mentioned here. There was disquiet expressed there that the experienced regulars are no longer participating or even looking in here because of the over-explicit responses. It sees a pity to spoil very instructive discussions by simply explaining the crossword. I hope I am not one of the guilty and do beg others to honour the spirit of the thread.

[midazolam]

JackDeCrow, you have made a very interesting point. I have never understood why, just because we use chambers as the reference (and therefore answers need to be from it) that every clue/wordplay/definition needs to cross referenced from chambers as well. By using sites like chambersreference or the cd rom features it makes this crossword sometimes much quicker to complete. With the demise of Chambers, a new dictionary as reference and without an electronic tool for that dictionary the listener might become more difficult to complete. I am all for clues not to be directly linked in Chambers.

[Jogler]

Coming in a full week after everyone else... but yippee, all now done and dusted! Many thanks for the hints and tips; I don't think the affected my thoughts but they did serve to make me confident of being on the right track - always a comfortable place to be! Very best wishes for the New Year.

[Speravi]

No: having ultimately obtained all the lights except 'uncharacteristic', this doesn't work, for me, in that the rubric has to be interpreted in a manner that, trying to be indulgent and kind, I could only describe as whimsical. I've been attempting the Listener since 1975, and this is the first offering that I consider to be unfair. I don't blame the setter.