ChatterBank35 mins ago
Are young black men responsible for most violent crime?
I see the Press Complaints Commision has censured an online blog for saying "the overwhelming majority of London's violent crime was carried out by young, African-Caribbean men".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8594097.stm
How true (or near to the truth) is that statement?
I notice the huge fight in Victoria station reported the other day (where a boy was stabbed to death) was young black boys (and girls), all I think school children (15 or 16 years old).
And I was horrified to see on Crimewatch last night how a small argument amongst a group of black men late at night so easily decended into a mass brawl where a person was stabbed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/...ttenham_assault.shtml
Do the figures back up the claim above?
And if so what do we do about it, before some of our city streets decend into the law of the jungle (if they are not there already)?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8594097.stm
How true (or near to the truth) is that statement?
I notice the huge fight in Victoria station reported the other day (where a boy was stabbed to death) was young black boys (and girls), all I think school children (15 or 16 years old).
And I was horrified to see on Crimewatch last night how a small argument amongst a group of black men late at night so easily decended into a mass brawl where a person was stabbed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/...ttenham_assault.shtml
Do the figures back up the claim above?
And if so what do we do about it, before some of our city streets decend into the law of the jungle (if they are not there already)?
Answers
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-- answer removed --
Black men are more likely to go to jail for first offences than their white counterparts.
Also, be very, very careful about quoting jail stats or someone will point out the percentage of prisoners who are ex-servicemen.
About 12,000 veterans are on probation or parole, representing 6 per cent of the total, while 8,500 are in prison, representing 8.5 per cent of the jail population, according to the report by the National Association of Probation Officers (Napo).
The figures suggest that more ex-servicemen and women are in the criminal justice system of England and Wales than there are troops serving in Afghanistan.
(Quoted from an old Gromit post).
There are 175,000 in the three services, and if you take that as a percentage of Britain's adult population (38,400,000) they make up 0.46% of the adult population.
So what conclusions should we draw from that?
0.46% of the adult population and they make up 8.5% of the current prison population.
Also, be very, very careful about quoting jail stats or someone will point out the percentage of prisoners who are ex-servicemen.
About 12,000 veterans are on probation or parole, representing 6 per cent of the total, while 8,500 are in prison, representing 8.5 per cent of the jail population, according to the report by the National Association of Probation Officers (Napo).
The figures suggest that more ex-servicemen and women are in the criminal justice system of England and Wales than there are troops serving in Afghanistan.
(Quoted from an old Gromit post).
There are 175,000 in the three services, and if you take that as a percentage of Britain's adult population (38,400,000) they make up 0.46% of the adult population.
So what conclusions should we draw from that?
0.46% of the adult population and they make up 8.5% of the current prison population.
VHG
As to what do we do about it?
I think that pumping resources into some form of UK 'Big Brother' (not the tv programme, but the American buddy system) would be a good start.
Seriously increased sentences for anyone found carrying an offensive weapon would be a good step forward...and once we've extricated ourselves from the 'war on terror', a huge hike in funding for the police.
Alongside this - tax breaks for community-based initiatives, and funding for workplace apprentice schemes.
These would not directly be aims at young black men, but young people in our poorest areas - so everyone would benefit.
As to what do we do about it?
I think that pumping resources into some form of UK 'Big Brother' (not the tv programme, but the American buddy system) would be a good start.
Seriously increased sentences for anyone found carrying an offensive weapon would be a good step forward...and once we've extricated ourselves from the 'war on terror', a huge hike in funding for the police.
Alongside this - tax breaks for community-based initiatives, and funding for workplace apprentice schemes.
These would not directly be aims at young black men, but young people in our poorest areas - so everyone would benefit.
rov1200
Your dates are a little out.
The initial influx of immigrants happened in the 50s and continued into the 60s.
There actually WAS a serious labour shortage in the health service and in transport.
'They' didn't 'swamp our society'.
'They' make up less than 5% of the population.
And what would we do without black nurses, tending to the elderly, left to die of hypothermia, whilst their offspring gorge themselves in front of their plasma TVs?
Only kidding.
Your dates are a little out.
The initial influx of immigrants happened in the 50s and continued into the 60s.
There actually WAS a serious labour shortage in the health service and in transport.
'They' didn't 'swamp our society'.
'They' make up less than 5% of the population.
And what would we do without black nurses, tending to the elderly, left to die of hypothermia, whilst their offspring gorge themselves in front of their plasma TVs?
Only kidding.
Blimey "Law of the Jungle" & "Banana Boats" and not so much as an insult, yet when I mentioned a horrific gang rape by a bunch of "Savages" the whole site erupted.
Well all the usual excuses and side-stepping, it's unbelievable.
sp1814 Rolls out the usual one about the number of ex-service personal in jail, I have to ask him how many are in there for gang rape, knife killings, and gang killings using guns?
/// Black men are more likely to go to jail for first offences than their white counterparts. ///
Where did you get this gem from? If it is true, then perhaps it's because the Black's first offence was more serious than the White's first offence.
jake-the-peg
/// More black people come from disadvantaged backgrounds ///
/// My Grandparents were as poor as church mice and never robbed anyone" ///
/// (Can we just avoid the dumb irrelevant argument for once please?) ///
Yes if you and others avoid using the dumb irrelevant excuse.
Well all the usual excuses and side-stepping, it's unbelievable.
sp1814 Rolls out the usual one about the number of ex-service personal in jail, I have to ask him how many are in there for gang rape, knife killings, and gang killings using guns?
/// Black men are more likely to go to jail for first offences than their white counterparts. ///
Where did you get this gem from? If it is true, then perhaps it's because the Black's first offence was more serious than the White's first offence.
jake-the-peg
/// More black people come from disadvantaged backgrounds ///
/// My Grandparents were as poor as church mice and never robbed anyone" ///
/// (Can we just avoid the dumb irrelevant argument for once please?) ///
Yes if you and others avoid using the dumb irrelevant excuse.
<<the slave ships>>
well as you have introduced them to the discussion, perhaps you would like to consider what percentage of our commercial establishment, infrastructure and inherited wealth was built in the first place on the blood and sweat of people bought, transported from their native country and worked to death for the benefit of our forebears.
well as you have introduced them to the discussion, perhaps you would like to consider what percentage of our commercial establishment, infrastructure and inherited wealth was built in the first place on the blood and sweat of people bought, transported from their native country and worked to death for the benefit of our forebears.
-- answer removed --
To help put 'our issues' with Afro caribbeans in context here are a few excerpts from the English Heritage site.
The transatlantic slave trade involved the forcible displacement or death of at least 10-12 million Africans (maybe nearer 50 million) to work in chattel slavery in North and South America and the Caribbean, At the time of the slave trade many Britons accumulated great wealth, and almost everyone in Britain was complicit in driving the consumer demand for goods especially sugar. Sugar was critical to the eighteenth century global economy in a similar way to oil today.Much of Europe came to rely on slave grown sugar, tobacco, rice, coffee, cocoa and cotton
The slave trade relied heavily on credit and the risks meant a growth in maritime insurance, focused at Lloyds of London - The Bank of England was set up in 1694, and underpinned the whole system of commercial credit, and its wealthy City members, from the governor down, often made their money wholly or partly in the slave trade. Provincial banking across England only emerged in the 18th century, with Liverpool slave trading merchants forming Heywoods Bank, which later became part of Barclays Bank.
Lloyds and Barings banks were also established for this purpose.
Metal goods were particularly important to exchange for Africans, including firearms, metal bars and manilas (brass and copper bracelets used as currency and decoration). The chains, padlocks, handcuffs and leg irons were used to restrain captured Africans. Other industries also flourished, particularly shipbuilding, rope and sail making, furniture and tool making (all of the plantation agricultural equipment was made in Britain).
Steam engines were sold to the plantations to replace wind water and horse power, many manufacturers in the Midlands objected to abolition fearing it would affect their business.
etc etc etc
The transatlantic slave trade involved the forcible displacement or death of at least 10-12 million Africans (maybe nearer 50 million) to work in chattel slavery in North and South America and the Caribbean, At the time of the slave trade many Britons accumulated great wealth, and almost everyone in Britain was complicit in driving the consumer demand for goods especially sugar. Sugar was critical to the eighteenth century global economy in a similar way to oil today.Much of Europe came to rely on slave grown sugar, tobacco, rice, coffee, cocoa and cotton
The slave trade relied heavily on credit and the risks meant a growth in maritime insurance, focused at Lloyds of London - The Bank of England was set up in 1694, and underpinned the whole system of commercial credit, and its wealthy City members, from the governor down, often made their money wholly or partly in the slave trade. Provincial banking across England only emerged in the 18th century, with Liverpool slave trading merchants forming Heywoods Bank, which later became part of Barclays Bank.
Lloyds and Barings banks were also established for this purpose.
Metal goods were particularly important to exchange for Africans, including firearms, metal bars and manilas (brass and copper bracelets used as currency and decoration). The chains, padlocks, handcuffs and leg irons were used to restrain captured Africans. Other industries also flourished, particularly shipbuilding, rope and sail making, furniture and tool making (all of the plantation agricultural equipment was made in Britain).
Steam engines were sold to the plantations to replace wind water and horse power, many manufacturers in the Midlands objected to abolition fearing it would affect their business.
etc etc etc
Cheers sp
BTW i'm not one who thinks we should apologise for the slave trade, as I think we should only apologise for things we are ourselves responsible for and apologising for the sins of the past is a bit of a nonsense.
However, i think it would be churlish not to acknowledge that much of what we have is partly here because of these events and this suffering in the past. On a personal note, my birthplace Liverpool has some beautiful buildings in the city which should be cherished, but we should also acknowledge that many of them were built with blood money.
In terms of relevance to this question, if we acknowledge there are social issues in the Black British community it would seem churlish in the extreme not to admit that this country did pretty well out of screwing around those people's ancestors.
You might be interested in this section of The English Heritage site, they're a client of mine and i only came across it by chance.
http://www.english-he...server/show/nav.18065
BTW i'm not one who thinks we should apologise for the slave trade, as I think we should only apologise for things we are ourselves responsible for and apologising for the sins of the past is a bit of a nonsense.
However, i think it would be churlish not to acknowledge that much of what we have is partly here because of these events and this suffering in the past. On a personal note, my birthplace Liverpool has some beautiful buildings in the city which should be cherished, but we should also acknowledge that many of them were built with blood money.
In terms of relevance to this question, if we acknowledge there are social issues in the Black British community it would seem churlish in the extreme not to admit that this country did pretty well out of screwing around those people's ancestors.
You might be interested in this section of The English Heritage site, they're a client of mine and i only came across it by chance.
http://www.english-he...server/show/nav.18065
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