Stephen Fry ... Wagner ... Damn!

[joggerjayne]

Damn ... Damn ... Damn ... Damn ... Damn ... !!!!!

I missed Stephen Fry on Wagner.

If anyone did see it, how was it ?

I've only seen a very short review in the paper.

And what was the punchline ?

Does the beauty and majesty of Wagner transcend any controversy ?

Or is it difficult to overcome the underlying anti-semitism, and associations with aryanism, Nietzche, Man and Superman, etc, and the Nazi's adoption of his themes and motifs ?

Or do we have to gloss over the issues to enjoy the music ?

For what it's worth, I am an ardent Wagnerite, and will not be swayed by any other opinions.

But ... I am curious.

J

[tamborine]

oh dear JJ....I thought of you as I listened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...tephen_Fry_on_Wagner/

[naomi24]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sjllw

[joggerjayne]

Oh, fabbity ... thank you so much, guys.

(why didn't I think of that ??)

Duuh me !

[joggerjayne]

You thought of me, Tambo ??

[askyourgran]

I'm sorry JJ I missed it too, but I'm not completely sold on Wagner, I think perhaps it was the Wagnerian majesty of Nazism that spoils it for me, It always brings to mind the large German opera singers with curly ears and strange shaped breasts.

[joggerjayne]

AYG ... So that would be, say Hildegard Behrens, or Kirsten Flagstad ...

... singing Brunhilde ?

(BTW ... Kirsten Flagstad ... the best operatic soprano of ANY generation)

(and in the 1950 Scala recording of The Ring, probably the best operatic performance ever recorded)

But ... that's just my opinion.

[jno]

His music isn't anti-semitic (though all I can think of on hearing the ride of the Valkyries is 'Kill the wabbit! Kill the wabbit!'). He was, sort of, though he wanted to assimilate Jews rather than gas them. His wife was, very.

[joggerjayne]

Mmm, jno ...

Some people might, just possibly, take the view that the unpleasant race of Niebelung dwarfs were ... in fact ... a representation of the Jews.

Only some people.

Well, okay ... most people.

Or, erm ... everyone, in fact.

[joggerjayne]

ps. Most people hear the Ride Of The Valkyrie and think of Apocalypse Now !!

Incidentally, I think The Ride ... is a rather artless section of The Ring and probably lets down the opera Die Walkure.

But that is also just my personal opinion.

[tamborine]

yep JJ...only 'cause I remembered you saying you liked him - nowt kinky :)

[joggerjayne]

Oh. Shame.

=0)

But well remembered you !

[jno]

not exactly. That's an interpretation you can put on it, and no doubt anti-semites do so; but you're actually free to interpret music any way you please, or to enoy it without 'interpreting' it at all. Wagner's intentions aren't the only template - in fact many people would argue that any artist's intentions are irrelevant to the finished product; it's what he does, not what he means to do, that matters.

This blog more or less represents the way I feel about it:

http://robertphilen.b...-art-and-culture.html

As for the Nazis, they can admire what they like; it's nothing to do with me. I don't actually like Wagner all that much, but I like Leni Riefenstahl's films. It doesn't make me a Nazi.

[tamborine]

didn't know Fry was a pianist.....thanx for the intro to Wagner - never really listened before but its in my car to encourage me to work :)

[jno]

work makes you free, tamborine

[joggerjayne]

I don't think it's anti semites who regard the Niebulung as a stab at the Jews ...

It's Jewish writers like Marc Weiner.

And, for decades, the Israel Philharmonic refused to play any works by Wagner.

(the Israel Philharmonic are probably not "anti semitic" !!)

[tamborine]

find it on Youtube JJ & post for me to hear, pls

[joggerjayne]

What, the Ride of the Valkyrie, Tambo?

Okay, okay, but ... because I don't like The Ride, I will also post you another piece of "rousing" Wagner, but a more refined piece ... the Prelude to the 3rd Act from Lohengrin.

Ride of the Valkyrie

(I have at least found you a good version ... by Wilhelm Furtwangler)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V92OBNsQgxU

Prelude to Act 3 of Lohengrin (much better!)

(after 30 seconds, you will know this piece)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqB801kFe2w

[joggerjayne]

Back tomorrow. Off to bed now.

Night, guys ...

J x x x

[philkool]

I thought stephen fry was a right wally on mondays darts programme