Banning the veil

[mike11111]

I'm beginning to have second thoughts. If this is the lady shown in the photograph who was fined for wearing the veil then she is due a refund.

http://news.bbc.co.uk...d/europe/10611398.stm

[boxtops]

Cazzz I agree with you on both counts, and I lived in Birmingham some 20 years back so can imagine how multicultural it is now. Driving veiled is unsafe, fron and side vision is limited, and the crimes committed by blokes (yes, generally blokes) wearing a burka disguise are, I suppose, only an updated version of wearing a stocking on your head. (Come to think of it, why do the crooks always pinch women's clothing to disguise themselves?!)

[jno]

cazzz, it is for religious rather than security reasons, at least that's the claim. The French have a much stronger tradition of state secularism than Britain does and though they are all kissy kissy when the pope comes visiting, they mostly try to keep religion at arm's length.

The one in Mike's photo should be allowed the opportunity to cover up, though.

[coccinelle]

TWR: well, at the moment in France a french muslim has brought out a book (well a journalist has but talking of this woman's experience) and she was battered black and blue if she didn't obey him. In a muslim marriage you obey your husband...

[tamborine]

it isn't banned in USA or UK. If we all covered up while driving, my bet is new laws would soon be passed.

http://4.bp.blogspot....ichaelJacksonKids.jpg

[cazzz1975]

box, yes well you probably know that area's like alum rock and sparkbrook are densily populated with burka wearers!

national security should take precidence over religion in my opinion. Then again I find religion a dangerous thing..

[boxtops]

They have just interviewed a French Mulsim woman on TV who covers her face, and she says she will be fined rather than unveil. She says that "it is against her conscience" to be unveiled - that is therefore her personal choice, thankfully she did not say it was against her religion (which it isn't)

[coccinelle]

boxtops, i have to disagree. If she says it's her personal choice it's because she wants to obey her husband. If her husband tells her not to wear a full burka but just honour Allah with a veil, she will do that.

[TWR]

Coccinelle, I understand where you are coming from, but Christ this is 2010 Regards the women that states she will not pay the fine, there is a very simple answer to that, remove her license to drive, I think that is simple to do, how many have you seen using the Bourke to commit EVIL terrorist crimes? quite a few, it is not the case that we are against it, it is the case for Safety, security ask a person with one eye how they find driving? & I am not taking a swipe out of the infliction before anyone harps on.

[boxtops]

It is personal choice coccinelle, as well as being a cultural norm in some societies, but I won't get into a war of words about it. Some women believe that they show their piety by covering (following the hadith that the prophet's wife covered modestly) but that personal choice can be influenced by the husbands and fathers who insist their womenfolk cover up. I know some strong-willed modern Islamic women who wear hijab but who do not agree and obey their husbands in all things, any more than non-Islamic women do.

[boxtops]

TWR - the reports I have seen are that it was men disguised in burkas committing those crimes, I'm not aware of any women doing do. I am prepared to be proved wrong in this.

[coccinelle]

TWR the man in that photo is her Islam representative (I can't remember if it's her husband or not as this was in our news a couple of months ago). She can't pay the fine cos she hasn't got any money to pay it; it has to come from her husband or family. No way, will he pay a fine for what he considers as normal, that his wife covers herself up in public.
She was stopped, say the police, because she was a danger on the road. This is not so, she could have been a potential danger on the road. How many people drive after drinking or smoking pot and are potentially dangerous but you can't SEE that unless there is an accident.

[Zeuhl]

This is a cultural issue.

The prevailing culture in this country is that we can see the faces of people we interact with.

other than Health & Safety, the only people in our culture who cover their faces are robbers and highwaymen.

I don't expect to have to deal with Hoodies covered up with scarves and sunglasses, I don't expect the Bobby on the beat to be hidden behind a balaclava and goggles and I don't expect to deal with a woman who is concealing her face from me.

Any form of face concealment except for H&S or certified medical reasons should be outlawed in public regardless of race or religion.
.

[TWR]

I can see this topic is going to go on & on, regards Drink Drive, drugs etc, you are right I do not disagree with that but in that case & in the case of an accident you can recognise the person involved, can you do that if someone hit your car wearing a Burke? I think not, I like many live in an area that have these women drive cars, they have not got a clue what's to their right or left, if that person was to pull out & there was an OAP or a person with a pram in their blind spot, could they see them, & incidentally with the Burke on your blind spot is ( with respect) the corner of your vision. was the Burke worn when the test was in motion? I do not think so as it interferes your vision

[TWR]

Zeuhl, Its as simple as that 100%

[boxtops]

Interesting point TWR - Muslim Driving School was on TV a few weeks back, the female instructor was uncomfortable in teaching a woman with a face veil which was much lighter - I did not see anyone learning to drive (on that programme) in a nikab or a burka. Then again, in Saudi and other Arab countries, women are not allowed to drive anyway, and in countries where the burka is the norm (eg Afghanistan) most of the women wouldn't have a chance to learn to drive. It's only when the cultural norm changes by moving to a different country that the opportunity arises. Face veils with a headscarf are far less inhibiting for vision than the burka, which has a fabric net across the eye-slots and gives very limited vision. I wouldn't want to drive with a bag on my head.

[Zeuhl]

Boxtops

that's right. In Malaysia, muslim women don't wear all this stuff, they may wear a headscarf but they are geared to getting out, working and interacting with people - no probs.

These arab dress codes go hand in glove (sorry) with a culture where women were not expected (allowed) to go out and do anything. Women who now want to interact in a western society but still wear this concealment are enacting an unworkable clash of cultures.

Either they integrate with the prevailing cultural norms or they stay at home and don't go out.
.

[TWR]

Hi Boxtops, I do not want an Orange for my passed experience in HGV driving, it was bad enough to see daily carnage on the road with people that could hardly see never mind having an obstruction on their faces, I am not knocking the Berkie in case the Race relation Bridge are waiting ( as they do "moan") My & the French argument is on the point of seeing & the most important " safety nothing more, As stated we have all in our passed been for a Driving test, I went with a clear vision, not with a Hat on, a helmet but clear vision, If I would have gone with a scarf around my head / eyes I would have been asked to remove the Item or the test will have been cancelled, you know yourself when someone is taking a test or driving lessons, have you seen anyone wearing a Bourke? if these people cannot confirm to the Law of the UK, simple, REMOVE THEIR LIECENCE, you will then see the difference.

[mike11111]

Thank you Boxtops for cottoning on so quickly. It's bloody hard work trying to be amusing on this site these days.