Scientology?

[El D]

Is anyone here a member - if so why?

[Chessman]

I flited with it about thirty years ago, and they wanted us to take a lie detector test, I walked out, wouldn't have anything to do with them since, but in the end, its whatever takes your fancy.

[Piper-AK]

I went on their website and on another site that busts Scientology myths.  It really is truly weird isn't it?  Is David Ike a Scientologist? (just with the similar Lizard theme and all that)

[El D]

Dammit none of them taking the bait - as you say basically it's all a crock of $*&! but I am amazed that anyone of sound mind could ever be taken in. What is the appeal? Just another way of preying on peoples insecurities I guess. Pretty scary brainwashing process though.

[Stevee]

El D You hace described every religion on earth. The brainwashing of some is just more socialy acceptable.

[Octavius]

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.  The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights 10 Dec. 1948

If people choose to be brainwashed it's up to them.  Your opinion is noted.

[justineo]

As long as they keep it to themselves, Octavius.

[El D]

Haha as is yours and that of the UN Octavius.

As an aside, I think that you will find Scientology none to amenable to those who use their freedom to change religion.

[Piper-AK]

Octavius - I understand how Article 18 applies, but do you not think that maybe the Scientologists are in breach of it themselves by forcing people to stay (allegedly) by intimidation (allegedly) and brainwashing (allegedly)? :)

[MargeB]

Octavius, what does this mean in practice? Almost all human beings go through the same cycle...born to a family in which we are reared and infused with a culture and belief system before we can even count. If the UN declaration is to be enforced, then for it to have any practical impact at by far the thickest edge of the wedge, the brainwashing of children by adults should be banned (I believe it should be). People should be given at least the opportunity to make their own minds up, irrespective of what their parents believe. Yet it is so hard for so many to make their minds up because they have been brainwashed before they could even weigh up the evidence. I watch this process go on with a 5 year old relative on a regular basis "Say your prayers or you will die and go into a burning pit forever. Eat this bread and you will not. You have an angel who sits at the bottom of your bed." This total heap of BS infuses many elements of the childrens lives and is hard to shake off in adulthood. In my opinion, it is classifiable as 'abuse'. The majority would disagree, but who says the majority is right?

As far as implementation of the declaration is concerned...this is human beings we are talking about here: real animals, subject to massive social influence and cultural biases by design; who become free thinkers only by recognizing this and shaking off the shakles. Sure, you can work from the ideal, but the reality is far different: people's short lives are abandoned to a complete load of **** because of some misplaced notion of the human mind.

[Octavius]

MargeB, I always enjoy your posts on religious matters.

Firstly, the UN declaration is about basic human rights, it isn't enforced, except perhaps in instances whereby individual beliefs or cultures are being persecuted (e.g jews et al during ww2).  Are you advocating a return to the pre-war values of dictatorial rule...?  I doubt it, but you get my point.

Secondly, in the UN declaration, everyone has the right to exercise one's religious beliefs and to educate one's children in those beliefs.

If you are saying that parents shouldn't be allowed to teach their children to follow their own beliefs, then that would include parents who teach their children that there is no god, that there is no religion, that santa claus doesn't exist, that the tooth fairy doesn't put coins under your pillow, there is no man in the moon and it isn't made of cheese, that little men don't live in the radio, that Chilly Billy doesn't live in the fridge and turn the light on.

A multicultural society exists for the sole purpose of accepting other cultures and beliefs within our own, if you don't accept their beliefs or recognise and acknowledge the merits of other cultures, then you become the wanderer trying to find somewhere to fit in.  You may not like what they believe in, but you should be man (or woman) enough to accept and acknowledge and uphold their basic human rights. 

[MargeB]

hi,

What about the human rights of the children? Do they have less rights because they are children? We wouldn't allow a disabled adult to be forcibly brainwashed by a cult by virtue of the fact that they are dependant upon some carer-but we allow it to happen to a huge number of children. And as a tax payer, I have to fund this brainwashing!

[Octavius]

Every woman, man, youth and child has the human right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

Are you suggesting that social services remove all children from families who teach them religious or cultural beliefs?  Or are you just taking it upon your self to decide which ones are right and wrong according to your beliefs?  Should we decide which school a child should go to, or let the parents decide?  Cubs, scouts or brownies?  Football, rugby, cricket, ballet, tap or line dancing?  As with most things, courts tend to step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

I agree with you that basic human rights are being denied to children in Angola who are vitctims of "exorcism" and something should be done, but is that because of religion or just advocates of child cruelty using religion as an excuse?  That is another issue.

I presume the reference of a link between taxpaying and brainwashing refers to the UK government.

[MargeB]

 To quote your quote: "Every woman, man, youth and child has the human right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion."
I agree with this.

Children, I contend, who are brainwashed with religion are denied the human right to freedom of thought, of conscience, and of religion. Brainwashing them with religion is not the same as the error of teaching them flawed science, or criminal behaviour. The latter examples are correct or incorrect based on verifiable, objective principles. Religion, by its very nature, exists outwith reason, so teaching it to the young is to program unreasoned, deep code that pervades much of the rest of their thinking and which is difficult to extricate.
To teach them no religion is not on an equal footing with teaching them any particular religion. Teaching no religion, or even atheism, is to some extent rationally justifiable, whereas religion is in no way thus.

The rights or wrongs of brainwashing children are the same irrespective of how easy a protection policy would be to implement.

Religion does not just brainwash with a belief set, but with an unjustifiable moral code and ethical system. Catholicism, for example, has a moral self-appraisal system based on navel gazing, self criticism and guilt. Objectively verifiable psychological experimentation has shown that this type of moral schema can have serious negative psychological consequences. As such, I believe that this commonplace brainwashing very often amounts to emotional abuse, whether the parents are aware of it or not.

[Octavius]

You are of course talking in the main about extremism, but where do you draw the line?  As a child taught catholicism and religious beliefs and Britush kulcha(sic), I can't say that your argument has convinced me to my parents to court for brainwashing me and subjecting me to systematic emotional abuse.

However, they have taught me to respect other's and to acknowledge reasoned debate without the need to persecute any particular individual or group for their own.  They have also bought me up to be a nice young man with reasonable morals and contentment.  Something I am sure you aspire to.

Let's suppose that a parent decides to teach their child a language, do they chose English, French, Gujarati, Swahili or as you say, no language at all.

I am amused by your arguments (as ever MargeB) referring to burning pits of hell and moral self appraisal etc, but can you prove without a shadow of doubt that religion as a whole is unjustifiable and unethical?  Will your voice be heard?

I said a few weeks ago on AB that none on here seem to have more to say about religion than atheists.

[theren_911]

Maybe children are "brainwashed" as you say. But without giving children a belief system and something to fear if they are bad - what would we end up with?

I'm a little ignorant of most religions but i was brought up CoE Christian, I have now decided that I don't believe in the Bible's teachings or the church as a whole. I wasn't persecuted for my decision, by the church or my family. I don't feel my human rights have ever been infringed upon, and to say children are being abused by teaching them morals is ridiculus.

 

Maybe we should teach them nothing and let them forage in the garden for nuts and berrys?

[Space]

please stop mixing beliefs, morals, and knowledge.
theren and especially Octavius.
Teaching religion doesn't have anything to do with teaching morals and knowledge. Stop pretending that it's the same. Be honest.

I was made a christian when I was a kid, and I am still angry that some people can be such liars that they could teach me maths and religious beliefs in the same building, pretending that those beliefs were reliable, and taking advantage of children's weaknesses.

[Space]

also, I didn't notice particilarly good behaviour from people who have been brainwashed by religion. It's rather the other way round.
Today, religion is still the best way to convince a kid to murder civilians. And just because christians aren't into slaughter anymore, don't forget what they did in the past.

[dyli795]

   MargeB -  isn't the effect that parents have on children , formulating moral values etc., etc., etc., just part of being born? as for Scientology, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes !

[simont]

When you teach your own children, it is very difficult to do it without some presupposition.  Either you believe in a God (or whatever you faith says you should believe in), or you don't believe in God, but believe in something else.  Perhaps like believing that each one of us sets our own destiny and that life is what we make it, etc.    Religion is about doing something so regularly it becomes second nature.  Religion is not about what you believe in.  I check the answerbank religiously.  I brush my teeth religiously (well not always).    I have a friend whose religion is worshipping his Mercedes SLK.  We all have beliefs, we all have a faith in something or other.  I have a faith (or hope) that when I get on the Thameslink to London Bridge in the morning, I am not going to be blown up by some crazy nut who says we should all die in the name of his religion. 
No, I'm afraid Marge, with your fancy words and clever tricks, you cannot avoid teaching your children to believe in something.  After you spent 10 years teaching your children not to believe in anything, if I were to go up to them and ask �Hey kids what do you believe in?�.  I could bet my bottom quid they'd say �I believe that I am not suppose to believe in anything... oh except santa claus... oh and I believe I'll get a really nice bike for Christmas...�. 
It's impossible Marge, we all believe in something.  You chose to believe in antheism, I chose to believe in Theism.  I won't try to convert you if you won't try to convert me either!
Scientology?  Logically flawed and run by people wanting to rip you off.   Believe in luck or supersition if you can't bare to bring yourself to realise the truth � there is only one real living God and he is as much alive today as he was when he created the world.