An independant N. Ireland

[modeller]

In view of the fact we are all in the EU and borders don't exist would N Ireland be better off entirely independant i.e independant of both us and southern Ireland. This has happened in Eastern Europe. The Begians are talking about a split to solve their sectarian differences as are the Spaniards and the Basques , as are the Scots but could it work in Ireland.

[Gromit]

Contrary to popular belief, they go for jobs not benefits.

ROI was booming, so it was an attractive place for immigrants, illegal or otherwise. Now it is bust, it will be a less attractive first destination or last destination.

[New Judge]

“The USA have a similar land mass to Europe with the same diversity of culture...”

Correct about the area of land, but culture? Are you serious when you say that the USA has the same diversity of culture as Europe? People in the USA generally (though not exclusively) are loyal to their nation and to their President. Can the same be said of Europe? Are EU citizens loyal to “Europe”. Are they loyal to their (as yet to be determined) head of State? No on both counts. People in Europe generally have allegiance to their own nation and their culture reflects this.

There is no comparison between the USA and the EU in this respect. The EU is an artificial concoction of disparate nations, each with its own agenda, that have been forced together by idiotic vain politicians keen to see the success of their “project” whatever the cost. It will eventually fail as all such artificial federations have, but the damage done in the meantime will, as is already being demonstrated, prove disastrous.

[modeller]

NJ You are right about the loyalty aspect but that was my point especially in places like Ireland . It took a bloody civil war and over a hundred years to unite the USA and even to day there are marked differences between the north and the south, the different states and the ethnic groups . To add to the mix there are quite extreme differences in religious practices. They also closely associate themselves with their own states , but despite all this they do make it work and consider themselves Americans.
Like you I are don't think a USE is likely our cultures are based on thousands of years of history which give us deep roots in the past. The USA is shallow rooted and more easily transplanted into common ground.

[whiskeryron]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ETrr-XHBjE

England 51st State ??? Ron.

[Gromit]

A USE is not desirable, and the EU does not have to follow that model. But a Union is desirable because it gives you more clout in the world. It may be a collective clout, but that is better than no clout at all.

The UK tries to have it both ways, an independent clout, and a collective clout with the EU. Though that approach might be good for our national pride, it is very expensive and wasteful.

We need to admit that we are no longer the Empire we were. We need to downsize as a country. That means stopping punching above our weight, and stopping pretending we are a world power. That leads to a choice, do we become a small island that is inward looking and not contribute or do we join and try to lead a collection of states, and maintain our influence at a fraction of the cost?

[modeller]

whiskey That was a great video and I don't know if it's significent but did you notice
the ethnicity of those who were not singing.

Gromit // try to lead a collection of states // I don't think that is possble now.
It might have been just after WW II when we had the status of the victor and No.1 in Europe but not now , both France and Germany have far greater influence than us.

If the EU was to collapse then a free trade federation of states might be possible and we would be a major partner in leadership.

In the USA there is a great difference between the power and influence of the different States with California being I believe the dominant partner.

[Aqualung]

// did you notice
the ethnicity of those who were not singing. //

The players and other people were listening to the Choir.

[New Judge]

Eaxctly, Gromit.

The UK needs to stop interfering in matters that do not concern its wellbeing and to stop others interfering in matters that do.

[Gromit]

I take it you are not in favour of our current Libya adventure then Judge.

[New Judge]

Absolutely not.

It is not our business to seek to depose foreign leaders. Especially when we have little or no idea of the motives of those who might replace him. Only a short while ago the Prime Minister of the UK was hugging and kissing “Colonel” Muammar Gaddafi, hailing him as the greatest thing since sliced bread and an important link between the Arab world and the West. Admittedly our government has changed since then but little or nothing has changed in Libya. Except, that is, that a rival faction has taken it into its head to jump on the bandwagon that is the “Arab Spring” and try to get a piece of the action for themselves.

The West again has made the usual mistake of trying to assimilate our model of democracy and transplant it into nations that cannot cope with it. We do so at our peril.

[modeller]

I see a bomb was thrown into a Santander branch in NI tonight . They obviously have not been reading this AB thread. .
I remember someone once suggesting we should float the whole island out into the middle of the Atlantic. This was followed by someone else saying yes and then sink it. I think they were DM readers.