Children in pubs/clubs exceptions?

[MrBassMan]

My local darts league has allowed over 14's, (accompanied by adults), to play in the league. Unfortunately, the club I'm a member of is sticking to the "kids to be out by 9.00" rule.

I have seen the summary of license on the wall that says children must leave by 9.00, but are there any exceptions to this? Is the local league wrong to allow over 14's in the league, as the games do not conclude until 10-10.30, (Friday evenings)?

Also, I live in a seaside town, so most pubs seem to allow children later access, (although my club does not), I've also often wondered what the rules are regarding this, people in holiday camps and families out for the night while on holiday to be served only until 9.00?

[Jan1957]

I live in a seaside town as well Mr BM and have run the local dart leagues. This has been brought up a few times in the local darts and pool leagues and has been agreed that the minimum age is 16. Let's face it landlords are in the business of making money and if they get a team of 14 year olds turning up who can't drink or even buy the opposition a drink it's not good for them. Also, as you say, if it's a club they all have different rules but most of them will let 16 year olds in if accompanied by an adult.

[MrBassMan]

Very true, but i believe the league is allowing 1 or 2 children at most per team. Basically allowing a parent to bring their child along, if they are interested, (the idea of a well behaved child being able to take part in the team, if the pubs/clubs are not too rowdy, is okay.)

A friend is wanting his son to play for our team, but I can see trouble with a couple of our committee members. I was wondering what the legality of these situations are, so I can try and convince them it's okay. What is the law regarding this? (Is our darts league/other pubs in the town simply taking no notice of the law regarding children?)

[Jan1957]

I have done a bit of googling on this and, as you say, a lot of sites differ but according to this site I have found I think they agree on 16 as well. It really does seem that here is no set law in a pub, it is just down to the licensee or what sort of licence they hold. Also with your club, it is really down to what the committee agree. Obviously there are different laws for pubs that do food regarding children but think that we are not really looking at that.

[Jan1957]

Oops, forgot the link.

http://www.beerandpub...cle.aspx?articleId=80

[MrBassMan]

Hmmm, still no clearer, really. I did a good bit of googling myself, even going to the local authorities website, but there seems to be nothing about this specifically.

The only real info I have is on the "summary of license", in the club. Children must be accompanied by an adult and be offsite by 9.00.

But if this is truly the case, everybody else is simply ignoring that law. What about birthdays/weddings when the bar is open, should parents with children be asked to leave then?

I'm still confused regarding this, it looks to me like the majority of pubs have decided that its their decision to make, (even though there does seem to be a 9.00 law), how on earth do holiday camps get away with it, is there a special license? I might send an email to the local authority, but I don't think I am going to be happy with the answers. It seems that maybe our committee is sticking to the letter of the law? That's annoying to holiday makers and members, though, when our club seems to be the only one that enforces this. It also means that families aren't likely to come in anyway, (to watch late kickoff foot all, for instance), as they know they will have to leave before the game is over!

The sensible way to handle this would be, 9.00, but under special circumstances left upto the licensees discretion. I was kind of hoping this was the case, but I'm getting more disheartened the more I look into it.

[Buenchico]

The Licensing Act 2003 places no general restrictions on young people being on licensed premises other than stating that it's an offence to allow anyone under 16 years to be present unless they're accompanied by someone who is at least 18 years old:
http://www.legislatio...a/2003/17/section/145

However, when considering the application for a Club Premises Certificate "the authority must grant the certificate in accordance with the application subject only to . . . such conditions as are consistent with the club operating schedule accompanying the application . . . "
That means that, if the the club committee submitted an application stating that children would not be allowed on the premises after 9pm, the licensing authority was obliged to include that condition (and the club is then required to enforce it).

Your club is entitled to apply to vary the conditions of the Club Premises Certificate but it would seem that they don't wish to do so.

Chris

[MrBassMan]

Thanks both of you, thats helped me no end. The license was obtained by one of the committee who has a problem with kids, so they must have stated 9.00! (I can remember them stating that this was now the law, and children could not be on the premises. They have actually managed to lose the club some loyal members with this little stunt!)

I have already primed some other committee members that the situation is about to arise, but I thought all hope was lost. Now I can see there is a chance of the sensible members making the change.


As a side note, (since you seem to have outted the two committee as twisting the facts to fit there agenda), could you also answer this vaguely related question?

The club is licensed from 11-12, 7 days a week. I have tried for some time for the club to change the time to 1 for fri/sat, mainly because the events at the weekend finish at 12, but folk are waiting for taxis etc. so its stupid slamming the bar down and refusing to serve, (which the bar staff are embarrassed about and apologies for.) Recently there must have been some debate because I was told that it had been looked into and it would cost £1000 if we wanted to extend the license, so they could not afford to do it. I thought at the time that this was BS, but as they had supposedly contact Allerdale council regarding this I let it go.

Is there any chance that this £1000 claim is correct, or is it another lie. I know for a fact that several of the committee are all for the extra hour, and were in two minds whether it was worth the money, but if it's only a matter of applying for changes to the current license, thats another thing they can put on the agenda at the next meeting. :D

[ABerrant]

This appears to be the list of fees (per rateable value) for variation of a premises licence...

http://www.allerdale....g/licence---fees.aspx

[MrBassMan]

I completely missed that, when I was looking for child rules. So, the initial license cost say, £900, I suppose then £320 per year after that....if any changes are requested, (i.e. Children times or opening hours), another full £900 is charged and I expect the full paperwork. Am I understand this correctly?

So, because these two committee members have an agenda, it means they placed an unwanted time limit on children and a stupid closing time, (stupid as in members sat in the club for 30-45 minutes waiting for taxis and cant get a drink). The only way that the rest of the committee can fix this is if they are willing to redo all the paperwork and pay the £900 to get the license amended? Or am I missing something?

[bednobs]

personally i think you are missing something. The club are entitled to make these stipulations, and you can't call them "unwanted" just because you don't want them because clearly somebody wanted them. The darts league is a seperate issue, and if it will allow 14 year olds to play, that's great, but they cannot play at a premises where the licence excludes them - can't really see that as a huge problem - on the nights where you are playing at a venue that dosen't allow them after a certain time, they simply don't come. It dosen't seem to me from what you've said that anyone is lying or twisting things - simply enforcing the conditions of the licence whaich they are legally obliged to do (so saying it's the law about no children after nine, while not a general law, is legally enforceable in respect of the club you are talking about)
Perhaps if you offered tp pay the £900 yourself to vary the licence you might have a more positive response. Of course there may be loads of members who very much appreciate the absense of children after a certain time (i would!) so you simply can't assume that what you want is what everyone wants
As regards to the timing of the club closing. I can't really get where you are coming from either i'm afraid. Why don't people just book taxis 1/2 an hour earlier? If the opening was extended till 1 am for example, why would it be any different? people would just book their taxis at 1 instead of 12, and then be standing around for 30 minutes not getting served wouldn't they?

[MrBassMan]

I agree that the "club" is entitled to stipulate, but it is the two committee members, (one of which applied for the license), who have done this. The other members of the committee don't seem to have a problem with children as long as there is a special reason for them to be in the premises later than 9.00. They seem to have been told that the "law" is that children "must" be out by 9.00, rather than it being a choice of the clubs and in such they have been lied to.

Of course the problem with not playing in venues with similar rules is that there are none. 14+ have been allowed in all other venues, and it would be futile to have a member of a team that could play in all BUT home games. This already caused bad feeling last year when the league ruling was first brought in, but I suppose that the loss in revenue should not really concern me, although as a member of the club - it does.

I personally don't mind the 9.00 rule at all, it has no effect on me or my life, I was simply trying to find out if there was an exception to the rule for those members that did care. I believe that they should have applied for the license, not stipulating any time, (if this is how it can be done), then made 9.00 a club rule. That would have given the club the flexibility in special circumstances and would not need a £900 change to the license to sort out.

As I mentioned they are not simply enforcing the conditions of the license. It was the two in question who put those conditions into the license, creating the situation in the first place. It also has created a weird situation where they are allowing children into private or semi-private parties/events after 9.00. There is a bar in the room that the children are in, which would mean that they are breaking the terms of the license themselves? They have always said that children were allowed because of the circumstances, but after seeing the information here, I am thinking they are incorrect.

As for paying the £900 myself, I have contributed thousands of pounds worth of time and items to the club over the years so would actually think about it if the club was struggling, (which it is not, yet). The music system, (not just a hifi), as well as some tv equipment has been given. I even bought the pool table for the club, when they decided that selling the previous one had been a rather stupid idea, so if I didn't see the situation being created, I would happily "offer to pay the £900 myself".

I am aware that some people do not like children. I personally have no children and have no great want for children to be allowed in the club. It is the fact though, from the comments that I have heard that parents on the whole do, and many others think our committee is being petty; meaning that there has been a lot of bad feeling towards the club and the committee over the last few years in regards to children not being allowed. Not being able to watch the last 30 minutes of a football match, for instance. Having to keep an eye on the time and leave before they are asked to leave by the aforementioned "two", has made the families with and the surprisingly well behaved children feel unwelcomed, almost all no longer come to the club anymore.

As for the 1am opening. Firstly, there are members simply wanting an extra hours drinking time and are beginning to stay in other clubs/pubs that offer the extra hour. The taxi situation is a basic reason why it would be handy to have that extra time. The music concludes at midnight, I believe that most people do indeed book the taxi's for 12, but they are not the best around here. I have seen a taxi ordered at 10 not turn up, and when phoned they cant pick up until 12.30! I have seen 12am taxi's eventually turn up at 1.15 or sometimes not at all! People, (often older, not keen on walking the distance or on their own), can be sat waiting for an hour, through no fault of their own. They ask for a drink while they are waiting, they cant get one. sad.


Long post. sheesh.