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Animals & Nature1 min ago
Charged with Section 4 Words/Behaviour - Fear unlawful violence
17 Answers
Hello all reading,appreciate you taking the time to read my post..anyway here goes.
I just have a few questions on this charge.
1.I no the worst out come is a prison sentence but with the amount of crime's going on etc i doubt this will end in a prison sentence,so am i right in thinking if i am found guilty I am likely to receive a fine for this offence (first time offence)
2.Im confused as to how/why i have been charged of this offence as there is no evidence of me saying anything that is deemed as threatening etc..just one guy and he's friends word against mine.
3.The guy has decided to call the police officer who interviewed me ...even though he was not at the scene any i volenteered myself to go for an interview.so why is he even needed?
4.Is it worth me getting a solicitor for this,my solicitor has quoted me £1000 so i didn't think it was worth me paying all that out..
5.This is the 4th time iv been to court now due to the "victim" keep putting off the settled dates...so iv lost out on almost a week's work due to this,if i am found not guilty do i get to claim loss of earnings for the days iv had off? also can i ask for my dna to be removed if im found not guilty?
Thank you all and would appreciate some quick short answer's on the above..as a side note if i do get found guilty of this then i think i will have lost all faith in our police force..this purely boils down to 2 friends claiming something against me,how doe this count as substantial evidence...waste of my time,the courts time in my opinion..
I just have a few questions on this charge.
1.I no the worst out come is a prison sentence but with the amount of crime's going on etc i doubt this will end in a prison sentence,so am i right in thinking if i am found guilty I am likely to receive a fine for this offence (first time offence)
2.Im confused as to how/why i have been charged of this offence as there is no evidence of me saying anything that is deemed as threatening etc..just one guy and he's friends word against mine.
3.The guy has decided to call the police officer who interviewed me ...even though he was not at the scene any i volenteered myself to go for an interview.so why is he even needed?
4.Is it worth me getting a solicitor for this,my solicitor has quoted me £1000 so i didn't think it was worth me paying all that out..
5.This is the 4th time iv been to court now due to the "victim" keep putting off the settled dates...so iv lost out on almost a week's work due to this,if i am found not guilty do i get to claim loss of earnings for the days iv had off? also can i ask for my dna to be removed if im found not guilty?
Thank you all and would appreciate some quick short answer's on the above..as a side note if i do get found guilty of this then i think i will have lost all faith in our police force..this purely boils down to 2 friends claiming something against me,how doe this count as substantial evidence...waste of my time,the courts time in my opinion..
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ok,
maybe good timing - my dad is staying with me at the moment- he's a justice....
Was it definately a section 4? - which is.....
(a) used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards another person; or
(b) distributed or displayed to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting.
or a section 5 -
which is basically shouting & swearing in the street....
Were you actually charged by the the police, and been given a date to go to court, or given the chance to pay a fine?
maybe good timing - my dad is staying with me at the moment- he's a justice....
Was it definately a section 4? - which is.....
(a) used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards another person; or
(b) distributed or displayed to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting.
or a section 5 -
which is basically shouting & swearing in the street....
Were you actually charged by the the police, and been given a date to go to court, or given the chance to pay a fine?
Yeah def a 4 mate it was (a) well they had no evidence on the original charge they wanted to charge me on due to no evidence which was gbh...so they said they wanna charge me on section 5 but i don't understand if they have no evidence for a gbh charge what evidence can they have for a 4 a...
Iv been court about 3 times already mate but they keep delaying it due to the "victim" being on holiday etc etc and just kept delaying it but seems it will finally all be sorted at the end of this month...
Iv been court about 3 times already mate but they keep delaying it due to the "victim" being on holiday etc etc and just kept delaying it but seems it will finally all be sorted at the end of this month...
Na it is so pathetic you wouldn't belive it if i told ya..you no them 5 a side places..well my team v the other team and during the game both teams (Not me..i was laughing at the banter gettin dishd out) were saying things to eachother you no what football's like...then it started getting heated and it kickd off with 2 players on my side and a few players on there side..anyway cas im down as the team captain they had my details on the system so i get a phone call from the police aksin me to go to an interview so i gladly said yeh ...cas i new i hadnt done anything wrong,anyway after lack of evidence the gbh charge gets dropped then they say were charging you on a section 4 a..which is confusing for reasons iv said already..honestly cant belive the court's will waste thousands on making me lose work when there is nothing to go on..i been told by alot of people it will get thrown out (especially with all the rioters filling up the spaces) But nothing surprises me anymore so thought id get other peoples advice on the matta..
Hey confused,
Just had a butchers at your post.
A close family friend is a magistrate and I will ask them what they'd do given the circumstances.
Probably throw the book at you! - joke!
Going on experience 2 'victims' that know each other usually only substitutes as one. Same principle for car accidents, doesn't matter how many people are in the car, they are not viable witnesses.
I will ask to see what the magistrate would do given what information you have provided.
Just had a butchers at your post.
A close family friend is a magistrate and I will ask them what they'd do given the circumstances.
Probably throw the book at you! - joke!
Going on experience 2 'victims' that know each other usually only substitutes as one. Same principle for car accidents, doesn't matter how many people are in the car, they are not viable witnesses.
I will ask to see what the magistrate would do given what information you have provided.
-- answer removed --
Cheers Eddie,yeah i was hopeing new judge would read my questions but no joy yet lol...well that's what I thought mate but iv been court to arrange dates 3 times now and due to go back on the end of this month...so looks like they are gonna go through with it,the part im struggling to come to terms with is why...
The CPS has, of course, already decided to prosecute you in this matter. That’s why you’ve been to court a number of times already.
When taking this decision they apply quite a stiff test. They have to consider whether the evidence available will support a realistic chance of a conviction. (As well as this they have to consider whether the prosecution would be “in the public interest” but that is not an issue here). If anything the CPS are usually criticised for erring on the cautious side in not pursuing prosecutions which they ought to, so I would suggest that the evidence they have meets their test.
You suggest that there is no evidence to support the charge, but indeed there is because two people have made statements giving their version of the events. You also say that this is “hardly substantial” but in many cases like this it is the only evidence available and a court must decide how substantial or otherwise it is. Before charging you the CPS has also to consider how substantial and credible that evidence might appear in court and again it seems it has passed their test.
The person who made the complaint does not decide who is or is not asked to appear as witnesses. That is a matter for the CPS (for prosecution witnesses) or the defendant (or more usually his lawyer) for defence witnesses. It is not unusual for police officers who interviewed those suspected of a crime to be called to court to give details of that interview. If you have no wish to cross-examine him in court his evidence may be “read” to the court without him being present, but that is a matter for the CPS to decide as he is their witness.
If you are found not guilty you will not be able to claim loss of earnings but you may be able to claim reasonable travelling expenses for your trips to court. As it stands at the moment you will not be able to have your DNA profile removed from the database. The length of time it remains there is currently under review as a result of a European court ruling.
There is a considerable difference between GBH and Section 4 Public Order Act offences. The former is a far more serious offence (which carries a maximum sentence of five years) and must involve considerable and significant actual violence. The less serious Public Order offence (maximum six months) is one of threatening behaviour not necessarily resulting in actual violence. So it follows that the evidence required to support each of them is quite different.
At the end of the day, unless the CPS decide to withdraw the case. it will be for the Magistrates to decide this matter by way of a trial. They will have to weigh the evidence provided by the two witnesses and your record of interview with the police against your evidence. If you are found guilty their guidelines for the lowest level of seriousness in Section 4 convictions suggest a fine and from your description that seems the most likely outcome. You will also be liable to pay prosecution costs (probably around £500 as the matter has been prepared for trial). If you really believe you are not guilty you might do well to consult a solicitor if for no other reason so that he can assess the evidence and advise you how you should plead.
Hope this helps.
When taking this decision they apply quite a stiff test. They have to consider whether the evidence available will support a realistic chance of a conviction. (As well as this they have to consider whether the prosecution would be “in the public interest” but that is not an issue here). If anything the CPS are usually criticised for erring on the cautious side in not pursuing prosecutions which they ought to, so I would suggest that the evidence they have meets their test.
You suggest that there is no evidence to support the charge, but indeed there is because two people have made statements giving their version of the events. You also say that this is “hardly substantial” but in many cases like this it is the only evidence available and a court must decide how substantial or otherwise it is. Before charging you the CPS has also to consider how substantial and credible that evidence might appear in court and again it seems it has passed their test.
The person who made the complaint does not decide who is or is not asked to appear as witnesses. That is a matter for the CPS (for prosecution witnesses) or the defendant (or more usually his lawyer) for defence witnesses. It is not unusual for police officers who interviewed those suspected of a crime to be called to court to give details of that interview. If you have no wish to cross-examine him in court his evidence may be “read” to the court without him being present, but that is a matter for the CPS to decide as he is their witness.
If you are found not guilty you will not be able to claim loss of earnings but you may be able to claim reasonable travelling expenses for your trips to court. As it stands at the moment you will not be able to have your DNA profile removed from the database. The length of time it remains there is currently under review as a result of a European court ruling.
There is a considerable difference between GBH and Section 4 Public Order Act offences. The former is a far more serious offence (which carries a maximum sentence of five years) and must involve considerable and significant actual violence. The less serious Public Order offence (maximum six months) is one of threatening behaviour not necessarily resulting in actual violence. So it follows that the evidence required to support each of them is quite different.
At the end of the day, unless the CPS decide to withdraw the case. it will be for the Magistrates to decide this matter by way of a trial. They will have to weigh the evidence provided by the two witnesses and your record of interview with the police against your evidence. If you are found guilty their guidelines for the lowest level of seriousness in Section 4 convictions suggest a fine and from your description that seems the most likely outcome. You will also be liable to pay prosecution costs (probably around £500 as the matter has been prepared for trial). If you really believe you are not guilty you might do well to consult a solicitor if for no other reason so that he can assess the evidence and advise you how you should plead.
Hope this helps.
Thanks new judge.
I undertand the cps have decided to try prosecuting me but the part im confused about is on what evidence...for example if i and a friend accused you of threatening me ...how can this be deemed as enough evidence to take to court,thats the bit i find hard to understand..i get the evidence can be less but surely just having a mate is not enough to make someone have to go through all this..
I would consult by solicitor and he's Sugar hot but he said to me that if i want him its gonna cost a grand..and he will guarentee i dont get a conviction but a fine is likely to be the worst case scenario of around £500 top's so i dint think it was worth my while paying out an extra £500 for no reason..
anyway cheers new judge,glad you read this..still a bit confused about a few things if you could clear them up,much appreciated.
Ok the only evidence that has been presented is my interview,the "victim's" interview and hes friend...how can that be deemed as enough evidence to convict is beyond me.
P.s these people were on the same side and are friends so there evidence surely should only count as one..as he is just going along with hes friend (the best part is the guy who is giving evidence werent even there..he left,so is lieing in hes statement,but theres no cctv or anything to prove this)
Oh ok i dint no that about the police thing just confused because we couldnt go through with the last court appearance because the policeman who interviewed me was on holiday..but i dint see what use he is due to not being at the scene...
Iv been cleared of all charged and given a nfa for the allegation of gbh due to no evidence...so
I undertand the cps have decided to try prosecuting me but the part im confused about is on what evidence...for example if i and a friend accused you of threatening me ...how can this be deemed as enough evidence to take to court,thats the bit i find hard to understand..i get the evidence can be less but surely just having a mate is not enough to make someone have to go through all this..
I would consult by solicitor and he's Sugar hot but he said to me that if i want him its gonna cost a grand..and he will guarentee i dont get a conviction but a fine is likely to be the worst case scenario of around £500 top's so i dint think it was worth my while paying out an extra £500 for no reason..
anyway cheers new judge,glad you read this..still a bit confused about a few things if you could clear them up,much appreciated.
Ok the only evidence that has been presented is my interview,the "victim's" interview and hes friend...how can that be deemed as enough evidence to convict is beyond me.
P.s these people were on the same side and are friends so there evidence surely should only count as one..as he is just going along with hes friend (the best part is the guy who is giving evidence werent even there..he left,so is lieing in hes statement,but theres no cctv or anything to prove this)
Oh ok i dint no that about the police thing just confused because we couldnt go through with the last court appearance because the policeman who interviewed me was on holiday..but i dint see what use he is due to not being at the scene...
Iv been cleared of all charged and given a nfa for the allegation of gbh due to no evidence...so
I don’t think I can add much more except to say that the police very often make enquiries on the basis of a complaint by just one person. Their statement (along with those of anybody else – in this case his mate) is put before the CPS and they examine the quality of the evidence. If they decide to prosecute and you decide to contest the charge then you have the choice whether those witnesses are needed in court. If you want them there they will have to give their evidence under oath and you (or your representative) will have the opportunity to test their evidence by means of cross examination. If you conduct your own defence the court’s Legal Advisor will help you with the process, but (s)he cannot act on your behalf.
In these days of widespread CCTV many people find it surprising that convictions can be secured by written or oral evidence alone. But the vast majority of trials in Magistrates’ Courts consist of nothing else.
In these days of widespread CCTV many people find it surprising that convictions can be secured by written or oral evidence alone. But the vast majority of trials in Magistrates’ Courts consist of nothing else.
It seems very likely from your description of the incident that, in the event you are convicted, the Magistrates will consider that a fine is appropriate.
However, there is more to consider than simply the cost. At the moment you are of “good character”. A conviction will ruin that and it can affect different people in different ways (in employment, education, etc.) and you should take this into account.
It may well be worth getting a solicitor’s opinion of the strength of the evidence against you. You should have been provided with copies of the statements against you and to get an opinion should not cost too much. Also bear in mind that if a trial is held the witnesses will have to give evidence in court under oath and they may not be too keen to do so.
Nobody on here can properly advise you how to proceed, but you should think carefully before you admit to doing something you believe you did not do, or maybe end up being tried without having taken advice.
However, there is more to consider than simply the cost. At the moment you are of “good character”. A conviction will ruin that and it can affect different people in different ways (in employment, education, etc.) and you should take this into account.
It may well be worth getting a solicitor’s opinion of the strength of the evidence against you. You should have been provided with copies of the statements against you and to get an opinion should not cost too much. Also bear in mind that if a trial is held the witnesses will have to give evidence in court under oath and they may not be too keen to do so.
Nobody on here can properly advise you how to proceed, but you should think carefully before you admit to doing something you believe you did not do, or maybe end up being tried without having taken advice.
Appreciate all the info given new judge,only a week away until i find out the outcome..
What's getting to me is im going over all the evidence (the 2 friends statements) its laughable some of the lies tbh,but anyway there is no mention from the person who i apparently threatened in he's statment saying i swore at him or threatened him in any way.. in he''s statement in mainly talks about the last allegation they tried accusing me of..only the friend mentions in he's statment i apparently threatened someone to a fight...
Which also leads me to my other last question (i promise lol) iv been cleared of all gbh charges and given a nfa for that .. and the charge is threatening behaviour section 4 so am i right in thinking that if the "victim's" solicitor tries talking about injurys or the brawl that happened.. i can simply state iv been cleared of all other allegations and that is irrelevant to the charge in question? (so basically they can only question me on things that involve me apparently being threatening etc)
if you could answer those 2 questions new judge id give ya a big ol smacka (thats a kiss...by the way lol)
What's getting to me is im going over all the evidence (the 2 friends statements) its laughable some of the lies tbh,but anyway there is no mention from the person who i apparently threatened in he's statment saying i swore at him or threatened him in any way.. in he''s statement in mainly talks about the last allegation they tried accusing me of..only the friend mentions in he's statment i apparently threatened someone to a fight...
Which also leads me to my other last question (i promise lol) iv been cleared of all gbh charges and given a nfa for that .. and the charge is threatening behaviour section 4 so am i right in thinking that if the "victim's" solicitor tries talking about injurys or the brawl that happened.. i can simply state iv been cleared of all other allegations and that is irrelevant to the charge in question? (so basically they can only question me on things that involve me apparently being threatening etc)
if you could answer those 2 questions new judge id give ya a big ol smacka (thats a kiss...by the way lol)
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