Hi all - I have LPA over my sisters property and finances, she was under the

[lyn1954]

COP until November 2011, the question is, will I have to account for every packet of crisps or bar of chocolate with receipts etc, it is not that I'm not keeping records of her out goings, it's just that sometimes I am using my own money for the "little things" and phone calls, stamps etc, but not adding these things to my sisters accounts; Will the courts ask to see her accounts, and should I pay out for an accountant?

Thanks for reading this.

[dzug2]

With a Lasting Power of Attorney it would be unusual for the court to want to see accounts at all unless an accusastion was made that you were misusing your powers
Even if they do the accounts can be fairly informal - don't waste your (or your sister's) money on an accountant.

[Hymie]

My understanding is that there is no such requirement to keep detailed accounts of all expenditure using powers under an LPA.

But it would be sensible to keep summary accounts of expenditure – so that should any questions be asked, you would have a contemporaneous record to show. With any utility bills and other such similar payments you should retain a copy of the bill paid.

In the unlikely event that you are required to account for your sister’s expenditure – these records should be sufficient, without the extra expense of an accountant.

[cathfromsaron]

you should repay yourself for these out of pocket expenses, and don't get an accountant! x

[factor-fiction]

I suggest just keeping a simple record on a spreadsheet. If anyone (maybe family) starts pointing a finger or making subtle/unsubtle comments then you can let them know it's available of they want to see it

[ummmm]

We were told that small things didn't matter. You're not a book-keeper or an accountant...and you won't be expected to be one.

Although the best way we've found is to have a petty cash tin.

[murraymints]

yup..I had to keep proper trial balance accounts with receipts for EVERYTHING...

[paddywak]

Though I've never really dealt with any thing major I am the treasurer of a small fishing club and while nobody has ever questioned my accounting I've always kept receipts etc and if necessary I can provide accounts going back years as I've always been wary of handling other peoples money just in case there is ever a problem. As factor says all you need is a simple spread sheet with income and out goings the hardest part is setting it up though you might find a template in your word processor after that it's only a few minutes a week to keep it up to date and while you may never need it at least you'll know that if anybody does question your handling of your sisters affairs you can give them a print out in a couple of minutes

[SANDYMORTON]

I was the donee of a LPA and my father was taking into a nursing home in 2005. He qualified for NHS funding as he was subject to continuous falls and prone to violence so no nursing home fees were payable.
I was told at the time he was only likely to live for a year but he passed away in October 2011.
The home was 25 miles away as it was the only one which would take him. I was retired and visted most days ( a 50 mile round trip ).
I am the only daughter. My sister passed away in 2001.
I did ask the Court of Protection for advice on expenses as my car was covering about 18,000 miles a year just visiting and running around for Dad.
Petrol was getting expensive. I did about 3,000 miles of my own so the total mileage was about 21,000 per year.
Tyres were only lasting 12 months as I had a Honda Jazz and it had to be serviced every 7 months and the insurance was more expensive as not many pensioners do 21,000 miles a year.
The only answer I got from the Court of Protection was I was the only one who knew Dad and if I was satisfied he would have wanted me to incurr all these expenses for the visits I could take them.
Early in 2010 I phoned the Court of Protection to say my car had done 110,000 miles and could I take some money from my fathers funds to replace it and the answer was yes but I must allow for my own mileage.
I also took for chrisps, sausage rolls, wine etc.
As it happened a court of protection visitor came to the home just after I replaced the car mainly paid for from my father's funds She glanced at the accounts and noticed my claim for £8,000 for the car and she just asked me what would my father have wanted me to do. I did say that I am sure he would not want me to be driving around in a car which was becomong less reliable and the guarage said it would need some expensive repairs soon anyway and I think my father would have not wanted me to pay for them and probably need a new car a few months later anyway.
She then said even though I spent a lot of money on behalf of my father as far as she was concerned they were reasonable and there was no point not visiting as there was no point me saving his moner for him to be the richest man in the graveyard and I was only really reducing my inheritance anyway.

Sandy

[lyn1954]

So in response to having petty cash for the doners smaller purchases, how does one get the petty cash without taking money from the doners account? hence the question about keeping receipts.

[SANDYMORTON]

Hi Lyn

I could not get receipts for everything.
There was a kiosk which sold ice cream for example nearby which did not issue receipts and Dad wanted a 99 most days in the summer and sometimes in the winter when it was not there.
The court of protection visitor just asked for an explanation but just accepted it.
I could not get a receipt for the car journeys to the home but the mileage could be got easily by looking at a route planner and the Honda was my one and only car.
I also signed the visitors book at the home when I went in and the staff knew I visited most days.
Evidence of most expenses could be found without receipts but keep them wherever possible.
In any case receipts are not foolproof. I could buy the odd pack of soap for example and use it for myself and have a receipt.
I think an auditor would ask questions if Dad was supposed to be using 2 bars of soap a day.

Sandy

[woofgang]

I think it would be reasonable to draw a small amount of money from the donor account and mark it as petty cash in any notes you might keep. Provided its a small amount and not drawn too often I can't see a problem. There has to be quite a lot of trust in the LPA system anyway, it would be quite easy to be fraudulent if you wanted to be which obviously you don't. MY big sis had the old style LPA for my mum because her handwriting got too bad and painful for her to write cheques. It would have been easy for her to just draw large sums of money as my Mum liked to deal in cash when she was taken out or to give as gifts to her grandkids and great grandkids, of course my Sis never did.

[dzug2]

<<yup..I had to keep proper trial balance accounts with receipts for EVERYTHING... >>

Sounds like you were a Deputy, not an Attorney

[TheOtherHalf]

We buy lots of little treats and necessities for MIL who we are LPOA over. I also buy clothes ,admittedly from charity shops as the `home` ruin everything. We have never been told to keep any receipts etc.

[SANDYMORTON]

Hi Dzug2.

I was an Attorney and the Court of Protection did send a visitor out but they only do spot checks and I was one of the people they decided to spot check. They also do visits if other beneficiary's of the estate complain for example.
How did you manage to get receipts for car journeys for example?.
I supose my case was less common in the fact that I had to do a 50 mile round trip to visit the home and I was the sole beneficiary of my fathers estate. There was a man who visited his father most days and he lived 36 miles from the home.
The visitor said she was checking I was looking after Dads clothes and he had things like glasses for example so she was also checking I was spending enough on him as checking all expenses were reasonable.
One thing I wandered about was would the court of protection accept expenditure on mobile broadband was acceptable as Dad wanted to see his bank statements which was unusual for somebody with dementia.
The court visitor had said this was not the first time she had heard of somebody wanting to see his bank statements and Dad was a user of the internet before he went into the home.
He looked at his statements and I operated the laptop. I am very doubtful if he remenbered any of the information but I was very surprised when he asked me 2 weeks before he passed away had I opened him an ISA.
I had opened one for him every year he was in the home.

Sandy

[tonywiltshire]

I agree with what appears to be the consensus that with lasting power of attorney you do not need to obtain all minor receipts for the court of protection, I suggest you keep a record of all minor expenditure and reimburse yourself at regular intervals. It is very easy to overlook minor expenses, or to feel guilty over claiming them, but they can soon mount up.

[SANDYMORTON]

Hi Tony

I have asked Dzug2 the same question. I was doing over 300 miles a week travelling to the home.
One journey of 50 miles will not affect your life style but I was doing about 18,000 miles per year on behalf of Dad and I was a pensioner myself.
How was I supposed to get receipts for that sort of expense. I kept the receipts for the servicing etc and for the car change.
If I had been travelling say 2 miles each way to the home the expese would not have been such a big issue but a round trip of 50 miles was very expensive and if I could not have used some of Dads money for travelling I would have not been able to afford to make so many visits.

Sandy

[DTCwordfan]

Actually, keeping notes with a pencil is acceptable and was used in the books of Traders for control in my Co.....the logic being that any erasure marks and heavy deletions would raise questions......that (The Book") is acceptable in trading arbitration as well.....

[MartinBev58]

Hi Sandy

Firstly may I say how sorry I am to hear about the loss of your father.
I have heard of the Court of Protection making spot checks on donees of LPA but I do not think they do many and it does not seem to make sense they chose you as you appear to be the sole beneficiary of your father's will.
They may have just drawn your name out of a hat.
The Court of Protection visitor would know what expenses are likely to be incurred and would know the distance you live from the home and will know the miles you have to do.
Common sense would say it is not normal for a pensioner to do 20,000 miles plus a year and you would need your fathers help to repair / replace your car in view of the mileage.
If your father did not qualify for NHS funding and social services got involved I think they may have queried the necessity for you to visit almost every day as this would have formed the bulk of the expenses.
I am not sure what the legal position would have been however. Your father lived in the home for a long time and he must have had a marvellous daughter to visit him most days.
It looks as if you visited him 6 days a week and I can well understand your need for a day off.

Martin