Domestication of dogs . . .

[shivvy]

. . . advantages and disadvantages.

Some of you have helped me before, but for those who haven't, I am doing a dog behaviour course and would appreciate hearing your thoughts on the advantages and disadvantages of the domestication of dogs - but importantly it needs to be from the dogs perspective. Ie if you were a dog would you prefer to be wild or would you choose domestication?

The question hints at thinking about the dogs behaviour, security and health, both physical and mental.

It is a research piece so I am doing plenty of reading/research but I know that folks on answerbank have plenty to say so I'm interested in any opinions any of you might have!

Thanks.

[woofgang]

That is totally impossible to answer and (I suspect) that may be the point of the exercise. a human can NEVER see anything from the perspective of another animal because we can only see their behaviours and not the thought process that led to them. Some signal actions that dogs make have been tied by observation to certain emotional states eg fear, appeasement, a wish to play but that is empirical because we can't ask the dog what he "meant" when he yawned, licked his lips looked away and so on.

There is a theory that dogs not only "chose" domestication (partnership) but "taught" humans how to be good dog partners. Dogs who chose to interact with humans got better and more food, shelter and the warmth and protection of the fire and so on BUT they would only interact with the humans who offered those things. Humans who dogs would interact with got assistance with hunting, the warmth of dogs to curl up to at night and the protection that guard dogs offered.

I suspect that neither side could foresee where it would lead!

[shivvy]

Thanks woofgang - that is very interesting.

[wildwood]

As a dog has no perspective of what it is like to be 'wild', the animal can not choose. Feral dogs revert back to their natural instinct to survive which is pretty much like their ancestors; the wolf.

[shivvy]

Thanks wildwood.

Because a dog cannot have a preference between being wild or domesticated, I am going to interpret and answer the question by thinking about which dog might be 'happier'.
For example - I imagine a wild dog would have a harder life due to having to regularly hunt for food, keep themselves and others safe etc. But, although a domesticated dog might have food and safety provided, they can often be overfed, or left in a house alone for 12 hours out of every day which must be a torture for such a sociable animal.

I think I need to consider the pros and cons of each dogs life and then try and put myself in the mind of a dog and decide on the basis of which would give me the most stimulating, healthy and 'rewarding' life.

Hope I'm on the right track!

[woofgang]

But for the dog who has no concept of arthritis, they might enjoy being overfed?
That's kind of what I am saying. Dogs live in the moment and so far a s we can tell, have no concept of things like going to the vets is scarey but vaccinations keep me safe. While we continue to believe that we can put ourselves into the mind of the dog, we will continue to get it wrong.

[boxtops]

Interesting, shivvy - I hark back to when our cat Rover went missing, and survived on hunting and looking after himself for seven months. I know he's not a dog - but we had to disabuse ourselves of the idea that he was "missing" us or sad not to be at home, but that as soon as he ran off, he went into survival mode, and immediately had to think about safety, and food, as his prime objectives. We wish we knew what he did, but he clearly managed to feed himself (he's a good hunter) - then in December, he was located when he started to go to houses as a potential source of food when the mouse population became less available. That's our hypothesis - we'll never know - he came to us as a stray and he came back to us as a survivor!

[shivvy]

Uh-oh, sounds like you think I'm well off the mark woofgang?

Because it is only an introductory/basic course on dog behaviour I think the question-setter is maybe using the question to encourage the students to research the main differences between the lives of wild and domestic dogs.

However I fully appreciate what you say about never being able to put ourselves in the minds of dogs. I have also been thinking that what a human might perceive as hardship or disadvantage (eg having to hunt for food) may in fact be the most 'stimulating/rewarding' part of the day for a dog in the wild.

Oh - not sure how to move on now!
I know that you have said that it is totally impossible to answer the question but I have to write something so maybe I could outline the main differences in the lifestyles and then conclude by explaining that it is not within my gift to say which a dog would choose because I am not a dog (no cheeky comments please!)

Boxtops - great story about Rover, and a great name for a cat!

[woofgang]

I get what you are saying, I really do but..... I think you could only say that a wild dog "preferred" or found hunting for food of itself rewarding if the wild dog passed up on a chance found huge lump of carrion and went off and hunted something live instead. How likely do you think that would be?

[shivvy]

Ok, I'm beginning to feel more confused and less confident about how to complete this question.

Woofgang - in your opinion is the question truely unanswerable, or do you think I don't have the understanding to answer it?

[woofgang]

I think you can give an answer...of course you can. I think if it was me I would be pointing out how impossible it is to give an answer "from the dog's perspective" because we can only see what a dog does, we can't see the thought process that led up to the action. You might take some examples like hunting behaviour being said to be rewarding and stimulating for the dog but if the act is intrinsically that pleasurable then would a non domesticated dog choose to hunt over eating the carrion? As I said, dogs don't seem to have any concept of healthy living, safety or longevity so they might "choose" to do risky or unhealthy things because they are more pleasurable, ie they scratch a stimulus itch at that time. Its actually us people who decide that our dogs need a healthy diet, vaccinations and to be stopped from chasing cats across busy roads.
I think though, the most important bit of answering this question is to demonstrate that you have given the question logical thought based on what you have learned. So what do you think are the advantages and disadvantages and [what] has led you to that conclusion?

[shivvy]

Whew! - thanks for your interest and input woofgang.

[Bambiagain]

Just found this thread and I find it very interesting. One aspect to be considered - and Woofgang has touched on it with the issue of wild dogs chasing prey / domesticated dogs not running across the road after cats etc. is that of training. We train dogs to act on our commands; I am still trying to stop mine chasing deer or hares when we are out and about. In this we are telling them to curb their natural instincts. If I spot the deer, etc. before my dog does and tell her not to chase, she doesn't. If she spots it first and starts chasing, I currently have a job stopping her - it's getting better, but she is not yet properly trained as my friend's dog is to stop immediately when called. Is the act of obedience a sign of trust between dog and owner, or of mere subservience? Does the dog feel more secure in acting to a command? All interesting points.

[woofgang]

YOu are welcome shivvy, I hope you get mega marks

[RATTER15]

I really couldnt answer that either, I would say it is also very difficult to generalise as domesticated dogs vary so much between species and from wild dogs, I think the terriers I always kept would have been happy left out to hunt and catch their own food where our wolfhounds would not be capable of doing such and I think would prefer the home comforts and their chunks of meat provided for them. Who really knows though.