Why should I be punished for using my noddle?

[chakka35]

I may have asked this before. If so, it was some years ago and we have fresh posters now. So here goes:

A central tenet of Christianity is that ‘they that believeth in him [Jesus] shall be saved’. I don’t believe in him. So two questions for Christians:

1.From what will you be saved and that I won’t?

2.Since my non-belief has been arrived at honestly and sincerely, using the intellect that evolution (you would say God) has given me, what have I done for which I should be punished by not being saved?

You’ll understand, of course, that I am not at all worried about my fate since I think the whole thing is nonsense anyway, but I’d like to know how Christians view the obvious unfairness of this idea, not to says its amorality.

[sandyRoe]

The goodly Godless will not be denied a place in Heaven. If there's any unfairness it's that I, a believer, have to fast, pray three times a day, and follow difficult religious observances, while the Godless can do pretty much as they like (within reason) and still find themselves in eternal bliss.

[nightmare]

which suggests a pretty obvious solution, does it not, Sandy ?

[ichkeria]

If your "noddle" has noddled correctly then the implication would be that there is no God or at least not one demanding various things from you. In which case there's no need to worry.
If, on the other hand, you are wrong about the above, then you've not been very bright, have you, and deserve everything you get :-)

[vetuste_ennemi]

I like your analogy, Jake. Yes, this is the Christian doctrine of atonement ("ransom sacrifice" to Truthabounds) as I understand it.
By the way, Truthabounds, what about the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation and the modern "remnant of Israel"?

[jomifl]

Because if you use your noddle it opens the way to blasphemous thoughts, thence to conversing with the devil and the loss of your soul. But that's OK 'cos we will all be saved by the mormons, the JWs, the 7th day adventists, the moonies, etc.etc.

[jomifl]

Sandy, surely you exaggerate just a little. If you do those things it is because you want to, after all you do have free will. If you gave them up you would also give up the sin of envy.

[jake-the-peg]

It seems very odd to me

Even odder than a judge doing a defendant's time for him.

However I have often thought that it makes much more sense from a Unitarian point of view - where Jesus is not a part of God

Now you have the angry Old testament God being appeased by the sacrifice of an innocent man, a great teacher and prophet.

The attonement doctrine come from Iranaeus who was around in the early second century whereas the trinity doctrine is a century earlier so I guess the logic doesn't really stand up.

But then logic and religion rarely does

[sandyRoe]

I prefer the belt and braces approach to salvation. Better safe than sorry, is what I say.
In the past I extended that philosophy into other areas of life. For example, when younger I'd practice the approved Catholic method of contraception while wearing 'protection'.

[Truthabounds]

Jake///God became man in order to sacrifice His perfect life as a blood sacrifice which would pay the price for the sin Adam committed //

Vetuste //Yes, this is the Christian doctrine of atonement //

Actually - No! God did not become man. His son, Jesus Christ born of man came to the earth. Because of their love for humankind, Jesus was prepared to offer his Human life, not his spiritual life, as a sacrifice. But although it covers all mankind, it is only applied to those who take advantage of it and put faith in it. It is not a case of once saved, always saved!

As to the 144,000 or remnant (one and the same actually). These ones have given up any hope of a resurrection to human life on earth. Whereas millions will be resurrected to life on earth, the 144000 are resurrected in the same manner as Jesus Christ.

[naomi24]

Got to wonder why God needed a sacrifice at all. Seems pretty gruesome to me.

[jomifl]

Truthabounds, at least get your 'facts' right. Assuming the bible to be a true account (which I don't) jesus did not 'come to the Earth' he was born on the Earth, no part of his physical being was anywhere other than on the Earth. Your erroneous statement is typical of the way believers subtley change the meanings of their holy books to fit in with their personal agendas.

[chakka35]

naomi is right, of course. I'm using my noddle in a subject where that is not allowed.
This is not the first time I have asked a serious question about what Christians believe and received no serious answer from an intelligent Christian. I get answers from intelligent non-believers or meaningless biblical quotes from people like vetuste. Then we have sandyRoe who doesn't seem to think that his allegedly omniscient God cannot see that he is hedging his bets like Pascal.

I suppose the answer is that one should abandon one's intellect and just believe blindly 'to save one's soul'. Not for me, thanks. Even if I believed all the religious nonsense I hope I'd have more guts than that. But in those circumstances, maybe not...

Sudden thought: Clanad is an intelligent Christian. Where is he?

[beso]

Join the Pastafarians. They really do want you to use your noodle.

[chakka35]

Good one, beso!

[Truthabounds]

People who think they are clever can sometimes be very stupid! (Not meant in a derogatory way)

Jomiflo says that Jesus did not "come to earth". Of course he did! His life was in Heaven and
he came down to the earth to be born as a human and to live as a human. To go from one place to another means just that, coming or going. He had an objective, to advocate his Father's name and Kingdom and also to pay the ransom for the perfect life lost by Adam.

[naomi24]

Truthabounds, //Of course he did! His life was in Heaven and
he came down to the earth to be born as a human and to live as a human.//

You make that statement as if it were fact - but it isn't. You may believe it -but that doesn't mean it's right.

Have you ever asked yourself - I mean really thought about it and asked yourself - why a God, that can do anything it wants to do, should require a blood-thirsty ransom? Pretty sick really.

[beso]

God made man exactly as we are then supposedly tested us for obedience even though He is supposed to know everything in the future or past.

So when we failed He turned into His own son and had Himself crucified to satisfy His arbitrary decision that someone or something had to suffer for offending His honour.

It is literally unbelievable rubbish.