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Do Social Services have the right to expect you to move into a house you inherit the day the deceased passes away.
I have been requested to ask this question on behalf of a lady who does not use the internet.
This lady lived with her father in a house jointly owned by herself and her father and had been his carer for 5 years before he went into the nursing home.
A relative passed away at the begining of November and left her his house.
Unfortunately her father passed away just over 4 weeks later.
Probate has now been granted in respect of both houses and she is now the sole owner of 2 houses.
The council could not sell the house herself and the father were living in at the time he went into the nursing home as she was a joint owner occupier and carer and the house was her sole residence.
The council has now sent her a bill for £1,300 and when she queried it they said the house which herself and her father owned was no longer her sole residence and she could have lived in the inherited house and the house herself and her father lived in could have been sold.
The house she inherited is 70 miles from the home, the second house was in probate for the last 4 weeks of her fathers life. She knew she had inherited the house the day the relative passed away but her name was not on the land certificate at that point so officially she did not own it.
Does anybody know if the council is right in saying that she could have gone and lived in the house for the last 4 weeks of her fathers life which she did not officially own at that point? and is it within its rights to demand the father pay the full fees from the day the other relative passed away.
To top the lot the other relative passed away at 11 o'clock at night and the council wants her to pay the full fees for her father from that day.
John
This lady lived with her father in a house jointly owned by herself and her father and had been his carer for 5 years before he went into the nursing home.
A relative passed away at the begining of November and left her his house.
Unfortunately her father passed away just over 4 weeks later.
Probate has now been granted in respect of both houses and she is now the sole owner of 2 houses.
The council could not sell the house herself and the father were living in at the time he went into the nursing home as she was a joint owner occupier and carer and the house was her sole residence.
The council has now sent her a bill for £1,300 and when she queried it they said the house which herself and her father owned was no longer her sole residence and she could have lived in the inherited house and the house herself and her father lived in could have been sold.
The house she inherited is 70 miles from the home, the second house was in probate for the last 4 weeks of her fathers life. She knew she had inherited the house the day the relative passed away but her name was not on the land certificate at that point so officially she did not own it.
Does anybody know if the council is right in saying that she could have gone and lived in the house for the last 4 weeks of her fathers life which she did not officially own at that point? and is it within its rights to demand the father pay the full fees from the day the other relative passed away.
To top the lot the other relative passed away at 11 o'clock at night and the council wants her to pay the full fees for her father from that day.
John
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Hi Barmaid
I have just had a read of CRAG on the internet and I think you are right the in the fact the the jointly owned house has to be disregarded even if she has another house.
I was left half of my mother / fathers house in the Midlands when I was still working in London.
When my mother passed away I inherited half of the house and we spoke about care fees to the solicitor, she said as I had my own house in London if Dad had to go into care only half the house could be taken towards care fees.
It looks if non of it could have been taken even though I owned the house in London for another year.
As it happens I got early retirement a year later, sold my house in London and joined my father in his house or I should say the house we jointly owned. I was widowed.
The same solicitor advised us it was good I was living with Dad because if Dad had to go into care the council would have to disregard all of the property.
There have been no consequences as Dad passed awy in December without going into care but it looks as if as soon as a son / daughter becomes a joint owner of the parents house it has to be disregarded by the council for care fees purposes even if they are not living there.
I don't think the authority missed the point about the daughter being the joint beneficial owner.
I know of 3 cases where a parent has got dementia and the son / daughter has been living with the parent as a joint owner due to being widowed.
Social Services advised them in all cases the house would have to be sold and the proceeds divided.
As soon as they said they were going to get a solicitor involved as they thought the parent qualified for NHS funding in all cases the NHS funding was given before they got to the solicitor.
I think Social Workers are instructed to try it on.
Martin
I have just had a read of CRAG on the internet and I think you are right the in the fact the the jointly owned house has to be disregarded even if she has another house.
I was left half of my mother / fathers house in the Midlands when I was still working in London.
When my mother passed away I inherited half of the house and we spoke about care fees to the solicitor, she said as I had my own house in London if Dad had to go into care only half the house could be taken towards care fees.
It looks if non of it could have been taken even though I owned the house in London for another year.
As it happens I got early retirement a year later, sold my house in London and joined my father in his house or I should say the house we jointly owned. I was widowed.
The same solicitor advised us it was good I was living with Dad because if Dad had to go into care the council would have to disregard all of the property.
There have been no consequences as Dad passed awy in December without going into care but it looks as if as soon as a son / daughter becomes a joint owner of the parents house it has to be disregarded by the council for care fees purposes even if they are not living there.
I don't think the authority missed the point about the daughter being the joint beneficial owner.
I know of 3 cases where a parent has got dementia and the son / daughter has been living with the parent as a joint owner due to being widowed.
Social Services advised them in all cases the house would have to be sold and the proceeds divided.
As soon as they said they were going to get a solicitor involved as they thought the parent qualified for NHS funding in all cases the NHS funding was given before they got to the solicitor.
I think Social Workers are instructed to try it on.
Martin
I think that there is another angle to this.
The council should be billing the father's estate. It should not be billing the daughter as she is not responsible for any of her father's (albeit disputed) debts.
If probate has been granted, then the council have 'missed the boat' as all debts should be cleared prior to probate being granted.
If probate has not been granted then the council may be entitled to the money from his estate, which by my reading of this is £14,000.
Once death has occurred, the savings limits are nul and all monies belong in the estate. The half of the house will almost certainly have to be disregarded as it has little or no value. The inherited house is the daughters and nothing to do with the father, however much the council would wish it so.
The council should be billing the father's estate. It should not be billing the daughter as she is not responsible for any of her father's (albeit disputed) debts.
If probate has been granted, then the council have 'missed the boat' as all debts should be cleared prior to probate being granted.
If probate has not been granted then the council may be entitled to the money from his estate, which by my reading of this is £14,000.
Once death has occurred, the savings limits are nul and all monies belong in the estate. The half of the house will almost certainly have to be disregarded as it has little or no value. The inherited house is the daughters and nothing to do with the father, however much the council would wish it so.
Hi Jessiedog
If you look at Age Concern Factsheet 10 if you have £14,000 or less it appears you only have to contribute your income towards your care.
As I said in a previous thread I was advised by a solicitor when I inherited my mothers half of the house the council could only take half of the equity in the house towards my fathers care fees if he had to go into care. Dad did not go into care and passed away suddenly in December.
As soon as I moved into the house with my father the solicitor said all of the house would have to have been disregarded for care home fees purposes.
Reading the CRAG report it look as if all of the house would have to be disregarded if there was a joint owner even if the joint owner did not occupy the house so I think the council does not have any claim because of the daughters inherited house.
Debts do not have to be cleared prior to probate being granted. Unless the exectors advance money to the estate there will be no money to pay debts until probate is granted.
Creditors should register the amounts owing to them with the executors.
Martin
If you look at Age Concern Factsheet 10 if you have £14,000 or less it appears you only have to contribute your income towards your care.
As I said in a previous thread I was advised by a solicitor when I inherited my mothers half of the house the council could only take half of the equity in the house towards my fathers care fees if he had to go into care. Dad did not go into care and passed away suddenly in December.
As soon as I moved into the house with my father the solicitor said all of the house would have to have been disregarded for care home fees purposes.
Reading the CRAG report it look as if all of the house would have to be disregarded if there was a joint owner even if the joint owner did not occupy the house so I think the council does not have any claim because of the daughters inherited house.
Debts do not have to be cleared prior to probate being granted. Unless the exectors advance money to the estate there will be no money to pay debts until probate is granted.
Creditors should register the amounts owing to them with the executors.
Martin
Hi Martin,
Just to clarify my point, by 'cleared' I mean made known to the estate, not necessarily paid.
If, and I stress if, the council has a claim, then it is to the estate, not the daughter. Her inherited house has no bearing on the case as it was never the property of the father.
I, too, think that local authorities try it on - banking on the lack of knowledge of people at a very stressful time in their lives. I find it quite amazing that the LA would even suggest that the daughter should move from her 'home' to a strange house many miles away (or imply that it was practicable to justify their position). Would this be suggested if, say, she had inherited a house in Australia? Distance makes no difference, Home is Home.
My point about the £14,000 is that it is no longer savings, but is now estate. I can see that, while the father was alive, he was below the threshold for fee contribution, but I believe that the council now see an opportunity and are trying to force the issue.
Just to clarify my point, by 'cleared' I mean made known to the estate, not necessarily paid.
If, and I stress if, the council has a claim, then it is to the estate, not the daughter. Her inherited house has no bearing on the case as it was never the property of the father.
I, too, think that local authorities try it on - banking on the lack of knowledge of people at a very stressful time in their lives. I find it quite amazing that the LA would even suggest that the daughter should move from her 'home' to a strange house many miles away (or imply that it was practicable to justify their position). Would this be suggested if, say, she had inherited a house in Australia? Distance makes no difference, Home is Home.
My point about the £14,000 is that it is no longer savings, but is now estate. I can see that, while the father was alive, he was below the threshold for fee contribution, but I believe that the council now see an opportunity and are trying to force the issue.
Hi Jessiedog
I know Local Authorities try it on.
I know somebody who owned a house and the father just lived there and did not own it.
The father got dementia and the Social Worker first told the son that he would have to downsize to pay the fathers fees as a 5 bedroom house was far too big for 2 people.
The son refused and social funding was quickly offered but the social worker said the son would have to pay a £230 per week top up as only the more expensive homes would take his father.
Again the son refused knowing that his father was dangerous and the council had ultimate responsibility.
The social worker did say that if the father was let onto the street he could kill a child and it would be the son's fault.
After an argument the father was given full NHS funding and the father kept on receiving his state and occupational pension which the son inherited.
I think people just have to stand their ground and I think there are a lot of people who should have full NHS funding who are either paying their own way or just getting Social Funding.
Martin
I know Local Authorities try it on.
I know somebody who owned a house and the father just lived there and did not own it.
The father got dementia and the Social Worker first told the son that he would have to downsize to pay the fathers fees as a 5 bedroom house was far too big for 2 people.
The son refused and social funding was quickly offered but the social worker said the son would have to pay a £230 per week top up as only the more expensive homes would take his father.
Again the son refused knowing that his father was dangerous and the council had ultimate responsibility.
The social worker did say that if the father was let onto the street he could kill a child and it would be the son's fault.
After an argument the father was given full NHS funding and the father kept on receiving his state and occupational pension which the son inherited.
I think people just have to stand their ground and I think there are a lot of people who should have full NHS funding who are either paying their own way or just getting Social Funding.
Martin
Jessie, I am sorry to say you are wrong "all debts have to be cleared prior to probate being granted". Debts do not have to be cleared prior to probate at all. Indeed it is often impossible for this to be done, due to the fact that the deceased's accounts are often frozen. Having read your second post, I see what you mean but even if the debt was not included in the application fro the Grant, the executors are still liable. So creditors can still come forwards after the Grant and indeed after the Trustee Act notices. The only thing that can bar the Council is the Limitation Acts.
However, I do agree with the majority of the rest of your posts.
However, I do agree with the majority of the rest of your posts.
Hi Barmaid
You are right in what you have said.
For your interest when my father passed away in December there was about £300 outstanding on his credit card. He always paid his bills on time.
I phoned the credit card company and was advised that I could pay the balance before the due date or interest would be added while probate was awaited.
As it was such a small amount and his bank released his current account funds to me I just paid up and included the figure as a debt due to myself on the probate application.
I never bothered checking if the credit card company was right in saying interest would be added.
Martin
You are right in what you have said.
For your interest when my father passed away in December there was about £300 outstanding on his credit card. He always paid his bills on time.
I phoned the credit card company and was advised that I could pay the balance before the due date or interest would be added while probate was awaited.
As it was such a small amount and his bank released his current account funds to me I just paid up and included the figure as a debt due to myself on the probate application.
I never bothered checking if the credit card company was right in saying interest would be added.
Martin
Hi Everyone.
Thank you for your answers.
I will advise the lady to refuse to pay the bill and refer the council to CRAG.
I accept this case is unusual but I can only agree Councils try it on.
Maybe the person who sent the invoice has made an error as he may have never had a similar situation before but I do suspect it was a try on.
John
Thank you for your answers.
I will advise the lady to refuse to pay the bill and refer the council to CRAG.
I accept this case is unusual but I can only agree Councils try it on.
Maybe the person who sent the invoice has made an error as he may have never had a similar situation before but I do suspect it was a try on.
John
Martin, that was naughty of the cc company. The interest on my husband's cc's and loan was frozen until probate by Sainsbury's, M and S and John Lewis. I actually had to chase Sainsbury's for the loan amount so that I could complete the probate paperwork and they said not to worry, they were in no hurry and the loan was frozen.
Hi Barmaid
Yes, further claims can be made after probate is granted but there would have to be a strong case that the executors did not make enough effort to find any claims that could be made on the estate.
I think that in this case that would be difficult for the LA to argue as they were totally aware of the fathers' death. The daughter, however, would have no reason to assume that the LA were going to bill the estate as, up to the point of death, her father was not contributing to the care home fees.
All this is academic anyway as we don't know if probate has been granted. It was just a thought of mine as another point of view.
Another thought, just to stir things up further, By suggesting that the father/daughter's house is not the daughter's main residence, the LA are actually, potentially, encouraging her to avoid capital gains tax on the sale of either of the two houses. If her main residence is the family home, capital gains tax will be due on the sale of the inherited property. If the inherited house is her main residence, then she could argue that she has moved from her original home into the new property, and as she owns half the house, capital gains tax is only payable on the father's half when sold. Think of moving to a new house and not having sold your first house prior to the move. There is a period of grace from the IR before CGT is payable.
O what a tangled web we weave...
Yes, further claims can be made after probate is granted but there would have to be a strong case that the executors did not make enough effort to find any claims that could be made on the estate.
I think that in this case that would be difficult for the LA to argue as they were totally aware of the fathers' death. The daughter, however, would have no reason to assume that the LA were going to bill the estate as, up to the point of death, her father was not contributing to the care home fees.
All this is academic anyway as we don't know if probate has been granted. It was just a thought of mine as another point of view.
Another thought, just to stir things up further, By suggesting that the father/daughter's house is not the daughter's main residence, the LA are actually, potentially, encouraging her to avoid capital gains tax on the sale of either of the two houses. If her main residence is the family home, capital gains tax will be due on the sale of the inherited property. If the inherited house is her main residence, then she could argue that she has moved from her original home into the new property, and as she owns half the house, capital gains tax is only payable on the father's half when sold. Think of moving to a new house and not having sold your first house prior to the move. There is a period of grace from the IR before CGT is payable.
O what a tangled web we weave...
Hi Jessiedog
Capital gains tax will not be payable if the inherited house is sold reasonably quickly.
Inheritance tax could be payable if the estate is worth more than £325,000 or if thr 2 estates are worth more than £650,000 if the deceased has been married in the past.
If the lady wants to move to that house then her present house will be subject to capital gains tax from when she moves out and her inherited house will count as her main residence.
Martin
Capital gains tax will not be payable if the inherited house is sold reasonably quickly.
Inheritance tax could be payable if the estate is worth more than £325,000 or if thr 2 estates are worth more than £650,000 if the deceased has been married in the past.
If the lady wants to move to that house then her present house will be subject to capital gains tax from when she moves out and her inherited house will count as her main residence.
Martin
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