Scouts to open it's doors to atheists.

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242584/Scouts-pledge-drop-mention-God-promise-new-members-able-declare-atheists.html

Along with all other discipline it seems, who told that kid he could bend the peak of his uniform cap in such a way?

Soon they will be allowed to wear the peak either at the side or at the back.

What is the World coming to?

[naomi24]

Khandro, //everyone else refutes it.//

Clearly everyone else doesn’t refute it. The word means ‘without god’, it’s a simple as that.

[Kromovaracun]

" The Oxford, Chambers, Websters and the online 'Free Dictionary'"

Oxford dictionary:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/atheist?q=atheist
"a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods"

This definition would include a newborn baby - because it includes both those who simply lack a belief and those who choose disbelief.


Merriam-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist
"Definition of atheist
: one who believes that there is no deity"

This one would not.

Cambridge Dictionaries online:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/atheist?q=atheist
"someone who believes that God or gods do not exist"

This one would not.

dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist?s=t
"a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

This one would not.

--

Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with any labels being bestowed on newborns - it's a bit like referring to a believing or nonbelieving housecat. Neither side can really 'claim' it.

And besides, even if a newborn believes something - that does not mean it is true.

[naomi24]

Khandro fails to understand that the word ‘atheist’ does not solely imply someone who has made a considered choice, but refers also to a ‘condition’ – a state of mind, if you like. When we talk about babies being atheists, we aren’t labelling them – simply denoting their condition of mind.

[Kromovaracun]

AOG

You're probably not reading this thread anymore, but I literally only just noticed your response to me earlier, so I figured I may as well reply just in case.

" when I was at school at that age, I or any of my form, would not have thought about any revulsion towards religion, let alone actually refusing to participate."

I understand, but it was a different time - I imagine there were probably other issues at the time that you began to feel strongly about at that age, but for me, at the time I grew up, religion was one of them.

" religion would not be the only subject that seemed boring [...] I doubt if anyone including yourself and your 'class mates' would dare to refuse to participate in any of those subjects."

Well, the reason we didn't participate wasn't because we were bored - we did it because we didn't feel like worshippers. We felt like we shouldn't if we didn't believe. We never got in anyone else's way, either - we just didn't stand up or bow our heads when others did.

Kind of funny, now I think of it. I think the reason we were never caught/told off/asked about it is because everyone else either had their eyes closed or was looking at the floor.

[Kromovaracun]

"When we talk about babies being atheists, we aren’t labelling them – simply denoting their condition of mind."

I'm an atheist too - but this sounds like a bit of a spurious distinction to me.

Personally, I wince whenever I hear kids referred to as 'Catholic children' or 'Islamic children' - and I'm sure you do too. If I challenged someone on this and they responded by saying, "Oh! It's okay! We're just denoting their state of mind!" I'm really not sure I'd be convinced.

Personally, I'm not at all uncomfortable with atheism being described as a choice - for me, anyway, it's a stance. I don't think that undermines it or cheapens it. It doesn't have any effect whatsoever on its truthfulness - any more than choosing to be a heliocentrist does.

I can't really think of an adequate word for the state of mind young children have towards religious issues - other than 'ignorant', maybe. Or perhaps 'vulnerable'.

[Khandro]

naomi; Now look up 'disbelief' and you will see a variation on; dis·be·lief (dsb-lf)
n.
Refusal or reluctance to believe.
This silly argument which you continue to obstinately pursue, began by the statement that babies were atheists, whom, as I've said time and time again, neither refuse nor are reluctant to believe in God.

[jomifl]

Khandro, that is because the monarch is nominally head of the armed forces. It is just a historical leftover and has no significance, just like he royal family.

[naomi24]

Khandro, am I alone in my obstinate pursuance of this argument? I think not. I have no idea why you’re now banging on about the definition of ‘disbelief’. Once again, it’s not automatically about ‘disbelief’. It’s about ABSENCE of belief – and babies are devoid of belief in a supernatural god. As I said, it doesn’t necessarily amount to choice – it’s also a condition of mind. Would you not agree that babies are devoid of a belief in supernatural gods?

[Khandro]

//Would you not agree that babies are devoid of a belief in supernatural gods?//
Yes, but that does not allow them to qualify as atheists.
Why not try this naomi; Next time you see a mother holding a baby, go up to her and say "Do you know, what you have there is a little atheist?" and see what response you get. :-)

[Khandro]

jomifl; Please don't now come on here at this late date and start knocking the Monarch; after all, - she's only doin' her gig.

[naomi24]

Khandro, //Would you not agree that babies are devoid of a belief in supernatural gods?//


////Yes,////

I rest my case…..

…. but before I go …..

//Why not try this naomi; Next time you see a mother holding a baby, go up to her and say "Do you know, what you have there is a little atheist?" and see what response you get. :-) //

If you want to pursue that stupid suggestion, may I refer to you this thread.

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1196101.html

I’m sure your input will admirably demonstrate exactly what is being discussed there.