Crosswords1 min ago
Eletricity meters
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Can anyone tell me who is reponsible for the electricity meter in my house? It is one of the older type and it needs changing to a trip box thingy! Are we responsible or does the meter 'belong' to the power company?
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Everything from the outside of your house up to, and including, the meter is the property of the company which owns the cable network (which is probably a different company to the one which sends you your bill).
Everything on your side of the meter is the property of the house-owner. This includes the fuse box which will either use fuse wire or cartridge fuses. From your post, it seems that it's this which needs to be replaced. It also reads as if you intend to replace it with miniature circuit breakers rather than conventional fuses. (The UK is the only country in Europe which permits fuses, rather than circuit breakers, to be installed in a mains supply circuit).
The replacement is a fairly straightforward job and is the sort of thing that many DIY enthusiasts do without bringing in an electrician. (Before someone posts to state that this is illegal under recently introduced legislation, I'll point out that this legislation exempts 'maintenance' tasks - such as the replacement of existing fittings - from its provisions). However, if your knowledge of electrical circuitry is such that you refer to an 'MCB consumer unit' as a 'trip box thingy', then perhaps it might be wisest to use the services of a professional! :-)
The actual empty box which holds the individual miniature circuit breakers will cost somewhere between �25 and �50. Then you'll need about 10 miniature circuit breakers to fit inside it. These cost about a fiver each. So the cost of the equipment wil probably be somewhere between �75 and �100. On top of that you'll have to pay the electrician for an hour or two of his time. At a rough guess, I'd estimate a total bill of �150 but make sure you you get several (inclusive) quotes before you get any work done, otherwise you could get caught by one of the rip-off guys who could easily charge you over �500!
Chris
Everything on your side of the meter is the property of the house-owner. This includes the fuse box which will either use fuse wire or cartridge fuses. From your post, it seems that it's this which needs to be replaced. It also reads as if you intend to replace it with miniature circuit breakers rather than conventional fuses. (The UK is the only country in Europe which permits fuses, rather than circuit breakers, to be installed in a mains supply circuit).
The replacement is a fairly straightforward job and is the sort of thing that many DIY enthusiasts do without bringing in an electrician. (Before someone posts to state that this is illegal under recently introduced legislation, I'll point out that this legislation exempts 'maintenance' tasks - such as the replacement of existing fittings - from its provisions). However, if your knowledge of electrical circuitry is such that you refer to an 'MCB consumer unit' as a 'trip box thingy', then perhaps it might be wisest to use the services of a professional! :-)
The actual empty box which holds the individual miniature circuit breakers will cost somewhere between �25 and �50. Then you'll need about 10 miniature circuit breakers to fit inside it. These cost about a fiver each. So the cost of the equipment wil probably be somewhere between �75 and �100. On top of that you'll have to pay the electrician for an hour or two of his time. At a rough guess, I'd estimate a total bill of �150 but make sure you you get several (inclusive) quotes before you get any work done, otherwise you could get caught by one of the rip-off guys who could easily charge you over �500!
Chris
Just a post script:
That figure of �150 quid might be rather conservative. I was basing it on about 2 hours labour at �30 per hour. It's not too hard to find an electrician around here (East Anglia) at those sort of prices but if you live in London you might have to pay at least double that. Perhaps a 'guesstimate' of �150 to �250 would have been better.
Chris
That figure of �150 quid might be rather conservative. I was basing it on about 2 hours labour at �30 per hour. It's not too hard to find an electrician around here (East Anglia) at those sort of prices but if you live in London you might have to pay at least double that. Perhaps a 'guesstimate' of �150 to �250 would have been better.
Chris
"If it ain't broke don't fix it". Don't know who said that but it's true.
If your old fuse box is working fine then stick with it. Just make sure that you know how to replace a fuse wire and have a torch (in case the fuse for the lights blows) and a selection of fuse wires available. In over 30 years I've had to replace a fuse once.
If your old fuse box is working fine then stick with it. Just make sure that you know how to replace a fuse wire and have a torch (in case the fuse for the lights blows) and a selection of fuse wires available. In over 30 years I've had to replace a fuse once.
If it has been brought to the attention of the householder that the trip needs upgrading then this should be done as an urgent matter of safety. Do not leave it.
I think what is refered to here is an old voltage operated earth leakage circuit breaker (ELCB). These are very much out of date and I'd be surprised if it was still working. They weren't that reliable in the first place and with changes to earthing practices and plastic water pipes etc. it is unlikely to now be even wired properly.
A modern current operated RCD should be installed as should modern earthing cables in addition to any other work needed to ensure the installation is as safe as it can be. If you are still operating an old out of date system then you run the risk of electric shock and fire.
This is definitely not the sort of work for a diy person without a proper knowledge of electrical installations and does not come under maintenance. If you attempted this work you would have to inform the power company to disconnect the supply to the old trip. You then have to inform building control before starting work and then have the installation checked for compliance and a certificate issued before it could all be reconnected to the power.
Kathyan:
Basically, I'm happy to agree with Gef's "If it ain't broke . . ." statement.
However, your initial post stated that your consumer unit "needs changing". Since you didn't say why, it's rather hard to answer your question! (e.g. if a qualified electrician - preferably one with no financial interest involved - has already condemned the unit as unsafe, then I'm certainly not going to suggest that you should ignore his advice!).
So, if there's a definite reason for changing the consumer unit, then get it done as soon as possible. If, on the other hand, it was just that someone mentioned that MCBs are more 'up-to-date' than fuses, then I'd probably leave it. (I ought to point out though, if you happen to connect yourself to the mains, you're chances of survival are greater with miniature circuit breakers rather than with fuses. This is because the modern consumer units usually incorporate a 'residual current device' which trips out very quickly as soon as you attempt to do your impersonation of a light bulb. Having said that though, I've connected myself to the mains on dozens of occasions - both with fused circuits and with circuit breakers - and I'm still here!).
Chris
Basically, I'm happy to agree with Gef's "If it ain't broke . . ." statement.
However, your initial post stated that your consumer unit "needs changing". Since you didn't say why, it's rather hard to answer your question! (e.g. if a qualified electrician - preferably one with no financial interest involved - has already condemned the unit as unsafe, then I'm certainly not going to suggest that you should ignore his advice!).
So, if there's a definite reason for changing the consumer unit, then get it done as soon as possible. If, on the other hand, it was just that someone mentioned that MCBs are more 'up-to-date' than fuses, then I'd probably leave it. (I ought to point out though, if you happen to connect yourself to the mains, you're chances of survival are greater with miniature circuit breakers rather than with fuses. This is because the modern consumer units usually incorporate a 'residual current device' which trips out very quickly as soon as you attempt to do your impersonation of a light bulb. Having said that though, I've connected myself to the mains on dozens of occasions - both with fused circuits and with circuit breakers - and I'm still here!).
Chris
(2 part post):
Me again!
Stanleyman was posting as I was typing! Just a note to say that we're not really in disagreement.
Firstly, irrespective of laws and qualifications, I hope that I made it clear that anyone who doesn't really know what they're doing with electrical circuitry should leave the work to the experts.
Secondly, if Stanleyman's assumption is correct (i.e. that the question actually refers to the ELCB rather than to the consumer unit) then there's definitely no reason why either Kathyan or any electrician employed by her should have anything to do with it. This is because the ELCB should be installed on the 'street' side of the meter, rather than on the 'house' side of it. This takes us right back to Kathyan's original question as to who is responsible for what. If it's the ELCB which needs replacing, then it's the responsibility of the company who maintain the cabling to replace it.
Me again!
Stanleyman was posting as I was typing! Just a note to say that we're not really in disagreement.
Firstly, irrespective of laws and qualifications, I hope that I made it clear that anyone who doesn't really know what they're doing with electrical circuitry should leave the work to the experts.
Secondly, if Stanleyman's assumption is correct (i.e. that the question actually refers to the ELCB rather than to the consumer unit) then there's definitely no reason why either Kathyan or any electrician employed by her should have anything to do with it. This is because the ELCB should be installed on the 'street' side of the meter, rather than on the 'house' side of it. This takes us right back to Kathyan's original question as to who is responsible for what. If it's the ELCB which needs replacing, then it's the responsibility of the company who maintain the cabling to replace it.
(Next instalment!):
As I've previously indicated, the company which is responsible for the cabling is almost certainly a different company to the one which sends out the electricity bills. The easiest way to find the name of this company is to look under the 'Emergency numbers' section in Yellow Pages. Under 'Electricity' you'll find the name of the relevant company. (Don't use the phone number listed, as this will be for emergency calls only. Just look up the company name in the phone book).
So, Kathyan, before proceeding any further, the first thing to do is to work out exactly what it is that 'needs changing'. If it's a solid box (with no switch on it) wired between where the cable comes in and the meter, then it's the ELCB and the responsibility of the relevant company.
If, however, the thing which 'needs replacing' is a box, wired on 'your' side of the meter, with the master switch for the electricity supply and a cover protecting the fuses, then it's an 'old-fashioned' fuse box and it's your responsibility.
Chris
As I've previously indicated, the company which is responsible for the cabling is almost certainly a different company to the one which sends out the electricity bills. The easiest way to find the name of this company is to look under the 'Emergency numbers' section in Yellow Pages. Under 'Electricity' you'll find the name of the relevant company. (Don't use the phone number listed, as this will be for emergency calls only. Just look up the company name in the phone book).
So, Kathyan, before proceeding any further, the first thing to do is to work out exactly what it is that 'needs changing'. If it's a solid box (with no switch on it) wired between where the cable comes in and the meter, then it's the ELCB and the responsibility of the relevant company.
If, however, the thing which 'needs replacing' is a box, wired on 'your' side of the meter, with the master switch for the electricity supply and a cover protecting the fuses, then it's an 'old-fashioned' fuse box and it's your responsibility.
Chris
I think you've got your wires crossed Chris. Anything connected to the meter outlet is the consumers responsibility unless it belongs to the supplier like a night rate timeswitch. An ELCB or RCD belongs to the consumer. These can both be connected before the consumer unit and only RCDs can be inside the unit, they are never connected before the EB meter.
An ELCB or later RCD was originally used with overhead supplies or otherwise where there was no suppliers earth. RCDs are now commonly used even where there is an earth as a means of shock protection to earth.
Miniature circuit breakers are not there for shock protection which is usually to earth, they are there to prevent a circuit overload in the same way as fuses. Fuses are still alive and well in Europe. A residual current circuit breaker will trip very quickly if it detects a fault to earth on either the live or neutral line of its circuit but not if it is only across the live and neutral where there is no way of protection from electric shock.
What should be appreciated is that installations should be inspected every few years for safety and compliance with current electrical regulations. This at the present time is not compulsory and unfortunatley leads to many installations becoming unsafe and non-compliant by neglect and DIY alteration. You don't know if it ain't broke unless it is inspected, and you do something about it. As you said Chris, leave it to the experts, next time you might not be so lucky, many aren't!
Once again, I'm not really in disagreement in Stanleyman. The important points, in relation to the original question, are:
1. If the item that needs replacing is on the 'street' side of the meter it definitely belongs to the supply company. They can be contacted in the way which I've previously indicated.
2. If the item which needs replacing is on the 'house' side of the meter then it almost certainly belongs to the house-owner. If Kathyan is certain that it needs replacing then she should get several quotes from qualified electricians.
While I agree with Stanleyman that it's RCDs which provide a certain level of protection against electrical shock (and not MCBs) I was assuming that any decent electrician would install an MCB box with integral RCD protection (unless such protection was already provided - which seems to be very unlikely).
Chris
1. If the item that needs replacing is on the 'street' side of the meter it definitely belongs to the supply company. They can be contacted in the way which I've previously indicated.
2. If the item which needs replacing is on the 'house' side of the meter then it almost certainly belongs to the house-owner. If Kathyan is certain that it needs replacing then she should get several quotes from qualified electricians.
While I agree with Stanleyman that it's RCDs which provide a certain level of protection against electrical shock (and not MCBs) I was assuming that any decent electrician would install an MCB box with integral RCD protection (unless such protection was already provided - which seems to be very unlikely).
Chris
As what was said previously by Chris and Stanleyman, if the consumer unit does require changing, and going by the sounds of it it does, from a safety point of view it would be advisable to replace it.
If the consumer unit is connected directly to the meter you will need to contact your local electricity supply company. These will hopefully F.O.C fit you a double pole isolater between the meter and your consumer unit so that the supply can be made not live whilst the work is carried out.
It is illegal for any one to remove the seals from either the meter or main fuse! as this could be viewed as you are trying to abstract electricity without payment.
Going by the age of your consumer unit it could possibly require your main cutout and probably incoming cable to be replaced as well.
This should also be F.O.C unless you require it to be relocated.
Andy
I have just had a conservatory built and the electrical sub-contractor to the conservatory company has said that we need a new consumer unit fitted as the new legislation says that new ground floor sockets have to be connected to a rcd/mcb unit. The company concerned have given us the following quotation, "Replace the exsiting consumer unit with a new RCD/MCB unit and meter tails to provide RCD protection to 13 amp socket outlets.
Carry out all necessary supplementary bonding to comply with regulations.
Test all existing circuits and connect to new consumer unit.
Provide completion certificate for the above works.
Cost �403.56 plus VAT."
Two questions; is this a reasonable price?
Can a RCD/MCB unit be fitted to the circuit serving the new sockets only?
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