News6 mins ago
No Fool
Just watched an interview of Tommy Robinson (EDL) by Andrew Neil in the Sunday Politics on TV and he held hos own , in my opinion, against a thorough and well researched interviewer.
He presented many aspects of life in Britain which are threatened by Islam to which i had a certain amount of sympathy.
He presented many aspects of life in Britain which are threatened by Islam to which i had a certain amount of sympathy.
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AOG
YouGov has nothing to do with the Government, they are an independent international market research company.
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YouGov has nothing to do with the Government, they are an independent international market research company.
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I have just watched the same interview Sqad.
'Mr Robinson' makes some interesting, if seriously flawed observations.
He refers in one of his rallying speeches to Nazi-ism and Islamism being, quote, 'two sides of the same coin'. If you can have someone in a position of influence - albeit very minor influence among like-minded and similarly bigoted and ill-informed individuals, spouting such arrant nonsense, then that is something to worry about. He goes on to refer to Islam as 'facist and violent' when clearly it is neither.
I am delighted to live in a demecracy, the downside of which is to give free speech to the muddled and fear-mongering tosh spouted by the EDL.
As long as I do live in a democracy, I am free to say that I would never ever want England 'defended' by self-appointed self-righteous busy-bodies who use their need to 'belong' to ally themselves with this nasty and odious group of people.
Extremism is a cancer in society - it is not cured by counter-extremism pedling nonsense about 'take-overs' by another culture.
Even if that were true, which it patently is not - do we really think that the likes of Mr Robinson with his half-formed fearful views about a future which does not exist, is an appropriate figurehead to lead an organisation in opposition?
The man is an ill-infomed biggot who claims to stand only against Muslim extremism, but incites his followers with phrases threatening the 'full force' of the EDL against the Muslim faith.
If the full force of the Muslim faith were to turn on Mr Robinson's minority of self-important self-appointed hooligans, then we would need to be worried.
But unlike Mr Robinson's mob, Islam is a tolerant and accepting faith, its extremists notwithstanding.
But assumingat all Muslims are like the extremists who murdered Lee Rigby, would be the equivalent of assuming that all white working class men thought and acted as 'Mr Robinson'.
God forbid that should ever be perceived as reality.
'Mr Robinson' makes some interesting, if seriously flawed observations.
He refers in one of his rallying speeches to Nazi-ism and Islamism being, quote, 'two sides of the same coin'. If you can have someone in a position of influence - albeit very minor influence among like-minded and similarly bigoted and ill-informed individuals, spouting such arrant nonsense, then that is something to worry about. He goes on to refer to Islam as 'facist and violent' when clearly it is neither.
I am delighted to live in a demecracy, the downside of which is to give free speech to the muddled and fear-mongering tosh spouted by the EDL.
As long as I do live in a democracy, I am free to say that I would never ever want England 'defended' by self-appointed self-righteous busy-bodies who use their need to 'belong' to ally themselves with this nasty and odious group of people.
Extremism is a cancer in society - it is not cured by counter-extremism pedling nonsense about 'take-overs' by another culture.
Even if that were true, which it patently is not - do we really think that the likes of Mr Robinson with his half-formed fearful views about a future which does not exist, is an appropriate figurehead to lead an organisation in opposition?
The man is an ill-infomed biggot who claims to stand only against Muslim extremism, but incites his followers with phrases threatening the 'full force' of the EDL against the Muslim faith.
If the full force of the Muslim faith were to turn on Mr Robinson's minority of self-important self-appointed hooligans, then we would need to be worried.
But unlike Mr Robinson's mob, Islam is a tolerant and accepting faith, its extremists notwithstanding.
But assumingat all Muslims are like the extremists who murdered Lee Rigby, would be the equivalent of assuming that all white working class men thought and acted as 'Mr Robinson'.
God forbid that should ever be perceived as reality.
I know this is the BNP and not the EDL, but this video highlights the 'Nasty Left' who seem no better educated than the EDL are generally accused of being.
Note the silly girl 02.45 into the video, all she can say in her support for immigration is the fact that if it wasn't for the Indians we wouldn't have Curries or if we didn't have the Italians we wouldn't have Pizzas.
Note the silly girl 02.45 into the video, all she can say in her support for immigration is the fact that if it wasn't for the Indians we wouldn't have Curries or if we didn't have the Italians we wouldn't have Pizzas.
andy-hughes
/// He goes on to refer to Islam as 'facist and violent' when clearly it is
neither. ///
I am afraid you are completely wrong with that statement, there is much proof of the fascism of the Islamic faith, and much evidence of it's violence.
As regards the rest of your post, can't you get over your loathing of the EDLand it's followers without the need to used statements such as
/// among like-minded and similarly bigoted and ill-informed individuals, spouting such arrant nonsense, ///
/// muddled and fear-mongering tosh spouted by the EDL. ///
/// self-appointed self-righteous busy-bodies who use their need to 'belong' to ally themselves with this nasty and odious group of people. ///
/// The man is an ill-infomed biggot ///
/// Mr Robinson's minority of self-important self-appointed hooligans, ///
/// But unlike Mr Robinson's mob, Islam is a tolerant and accepting faith, its extremists notwithstanding. ///
Put me in the middle of a EDL mob any day compared to being in the middle of a violent Middle Eastern mob, at the worse all I could expect is to be struck on the head by a flying bottle in the EDL mob, but at least I would still come out with my head on my shoulders.
Yes delve into your dictionary of abusive words Andy and I am sure you can come up with more to label a person you disagree with, one can disagree with his views but there is no need to use such words.
Incidentally Islam tolerant, you must be joking.
/// He goes on to refer to Islam as 'facist and violent' when clearly it is
neither. ///
I am afraid you are completely wrong with that statement, there is much proof of the fascism of the Islamic faith, and much evidence of it's violence.
As regards the rest of your post, can't you get over your loathing of the EDLand it's followers without the need to used statements such as
/// among like-minded and similarly bigoted and ill-informed individuals, spouting such arrant nonsense, ///
/// muddled and fear-mongering tosh spouted by the EDL. ///
/// self-appointed self-righteous busy-bodies who use their need to 'belong' to ally themselves with this nasty and odious group of people. ///
/// The man is an ill-infomed biggot ///
/// Mr Robinson's minority of self-important self-appointed hooligans, ///
/// But unlike Mr Robinson's mob, Islam is a tolerant and accepting faith, its extremists notwithstanding. ///
Put me in the middle of a EDL mob any day compared to being in the middle of a violent Middle Eastern mob, at the worse all I could expect is to be struck on the head by a flying bottle in the EDL mob, but at least I would still come out with my head on my shoulders.
Yes delve into your dictionary of abusive words Andy and I am sure you can come up with more to label a person you disagree with, one can disagree with his views but there is no need to use such words.
Incidentally Islam tolerant, you must be joking.
AOG - it's as easy to point at BNP and EDL idiots who have no brains or common sense, as it is to point out left Wing agititators but -
by definition, these are the individuals who are filmed and quoted because they are the ones who show up for the demos and marches.
The difference is - the majority of the population get on with their lives - the minority who feel a suffocating need to 'belong' join these pseudo- gangs for the comfort of like-minded company.
I feel strong sympathy for 'Mr Ribinson's' wife and family, they are placed in a position of fear and threat by the need of the husband and father to make a name for himself, and assume a position that no-one has given to him, but he has elected for himself - the leader of a racist group of thugs who want to 'defend' 'their' country, without the means to do one, or the right to do the other.
by definition, these are the individuals who are filmed and quoted because they are the ones who show up for the demos and marches.
The difference is - the majority of the population get on with their lives - the minority who feel a suffocating need to 'belong' join these pseudo- gangs for the comfort of like-minded company.
I feel strong sympathy for 'Mr Ribinson's' wife and family, they are placed in a position of fear and threat by the need of the husband and father to make a name for himself, and assume a position that no-one has given to him, but he has elected for himself - the leader of a racist group of thugs who want to 'defend' 'their' country, without the means to do one, or the right to do the other.
AOG - "Put me in the middle of a EDL mob any day compared to being in the middle of a violent Middle Eastern mob, at the worse all I could expect is to be struck on the head by a flying bottle in the EDL mob, but at least I would still come out with my head on my shoulders."
That's the difference between us - I would prefer not be in a violent mob full stop, rather than ponder the niceties of which particular form or violence I find preferable!
"one can disagree with his views but there is no need to use such words."
We must agree to disagree there then AOG - I find it necessary to call out muddle-headed thug thinking pretending to be national concern when I see it.
That's the difference between us - I would prefer not be in a violent mob full stop, rather than ponder the niceties of which particular form or violence I find preferable!
"one can disagree with his views but there is no need to use such words."
We must agree to disagree there then AOG - I find it necessary to call out muddle-headed thug thinking pretending to be national concern when I see it.
As soon as someone starts saying 'bigot' or 'fascist' about an opposing view, or the subject of an opinion, their own argument is devalued and seems to be swayed by emotion as much as thought.
Is it not possible to find some facts, or logical deduction, to make an argument without throwing emotive words in? It is hardly advancing the case against Mr Robinson, when he uses the word fascist to describe Islam, to reply "No. It isn't , you are!"
Is it not possible to find some facts, or logical deduction, to make an argument without throwing emotive words in? It is hardly advancing the case against Mr Robinson, when he uses the word fascist to describe Islam, to reply "No. It isn't , you are!"
Fred - personally I try hard not to use adjectives without careful application and corect meaning, so when i call 'Mr Robinson' a facist - i do mean what i say -
Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in mid-20th century Europe. Fascists seek to unify their nation through a totalitarian state that promotes the mass mobilization of the national community,[3][4] relying on a vanguard party to initiate a revolution to organize the nation on fascist principles.[5] Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation[3][6][7][8] and asserts that nations and races deemed superior should obtain living space by displacing ones deemed weak or inferior.[9]'.
That has him pretty much pegged I'd say.
And as for calling him a bigot -
big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. described bigotry in the following quotation: "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."[1]
Yup - a full house.
Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in mid-20th century Europe. Fascists seek to unify their nation through a totalitarian state that promotes the mass mobilization of the national community,[3][4] relying on a vanguard party to initiate a revolution to organize the nation on fascist principles.[5] Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation[3][6][7][8] and asserts that nations and races deemed superior should obtain living space by displacing ones deemed weak or inferior.[9]'.
That has him pretty much pegged I'd say.
And as for calling him a bigot -
big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. described bigotry in the following quotation: "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."[1]
Yup - a full house.
andy-hughes
/// AOG - it's as easy to point at BNP and EDL idiots who have no brains or common sense, as it is to point out left Wing agititators but - ///
There you go again with your unnecessary insults, "idiots who have no brains or common sense".
'Idiots' because you don't agree with their protest, 'No brains' well that is just being ridiculous, 'no common sense' whether or not you and perhaps others don't agree with their views does not mean that they lack common sense.
/// by definition, these are the individuals who are filmed and quoted because they are the ones who show up for the demos and marches. ///
Talking about common sense, it is obvious that if they didn't turn up for the demos and marches they wouldn't be there to be filmed and quoted.
/// The difference is - the majority of the population get on with their lives - the minority who feel a suffocating need to 'belong' join these pseudo- gangs for the comfort of like-minded company. ///
As with all protesters they find a need to protest from time to time, over various matters that they alone consider important, would you then also consider other protesters feel a suffocating need to belong, and also join other pseudo gangs for the comfort of a like minded company, or only for those causes that you personally disagree with, surely that is just being rather bigoted?
/// I feel strong sympathy for 'Mr Ribinson's' wife and family, they are placed in a position of fear and threat by the need of the husband and father to make a name for himself, ///
I wouldn't think that Mrs Robinson or her family wish the need for your strong sympathy, I would think that like every other supportive family they are behind Tommy Robinson all the way.
/// and assume a position that no-one has given to him, but he has elected for
himself ///
Like all other leaders who take up a cause I wouldn't think he needs anyone to give him the position he holds, he has a cause and others with likewise ideas are prepared to follow him.
/// the leader of a racist group of thugs who want to 'defend' 'their'
country, ///
Once again you have chosen to refer to him as "the leader of a racist group of thugs" when there is no evidence that they are racist at all, or that they are any more a group of thugs than any other protest group.
/// AOG - it's as easy to point at BNP and EDL idiots who have no brains or common sense, as it is to point out left Wing agititators but - ///
There you go again with your unnecessary insults, "idiots who have no brains or common sense".
'Idiots' because you don't agree with their protest, 'No brains' well that is just being ridiculous, 'no common sense' whether or not you and perhaps others don't agree with their views does not mean that they lack common sense.
/// by definition, these are the individuals who are filmed and quoted because they are the ones who show up for the demos and marches. ///
Talking about common sense, it is obvious that if they didn't turn up for the demos and marches they wouldn't be there to be filmed and quoted.
/// The difference is - the majority of the population get on with their lives - the minority who feel a suffocating need to 'belong' join these pseudo- gangs for the comfort of like-minded company. ///
As with all protesters they find a need to protest from time to time, over various matters that they alone consider important, would you then also consider other protesters feel a suffocating need to belong, and also join other pseudo gangs for the comfort of a like minded company, or only for those causes that you personally disagree with, surely that is just being rather bigoted?
/// I feel strong sympathy for 'Mr Ribinson's' wife and family, they are placed in a position of fear and threat by the need of the husband and father to make a name for himself, ///
I wouldn't think that Mrs Robinson or her family wish the need for your strong sympathy, I would think that like every other supportive family they are behind Tommy Robinson all the way.
/// and assume a position that no-one has given to him, but he has elected for
himself ///
Like all other leaders who take up a cause I wouldn't think he needs anyone to give him the position he holds, he has a cause and others with likewise ideas are prepared to follow him.
/// the leader of a racist group of thugs who want to 'defend' 'their'
country, ///
Once again you have chosen to refer to him as "the leader of a racist group of thugs" when there is no evidence that they are racist at all, or that they are any more a group of thugs than any other protest group.
andy-hughes
/// Yup - a full house. ///
No Andy I should stop digging if I were you.
Fascism ---- /// and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation ///
Doesn't fit the EDL at all, they are not nationalistic or militaristic, neither do they incite war or imperialism, they are just concerned about the spread of an alien religion.
Now Bigot ---- /// Someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance ///
Does that fit anyone you know?
/// Yup - a full house. ///
No Andy I should stop digging if I were you.
Fascism ---- /// and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation ///
Doesn't fit the EDL at all, they are not nationalistic or militaristic, neither do they incite war or imperialism, they are just concerned about the spread of an alien religion.
Now Bigot ---- /// Someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance ///
Does that fit anyone you know?
AOG - i am sure that you appreciate the delicious irony of taking me to task for my points about the information given on the thread - in what I may say is a somewhat condescending manner - and then you proceed to denigrate me in the same way that gives you such ire when it is visited on you.
I stand by what i have said, and the reasons i have outlined for saying it.
Once again - as so often, you are a lone voice in taking me to ask, as you do to others - but no-one has ever done it with the regularity and superiority that you bring.
"Then that is just saying something for your obvious lack of vocabulary."
As i say - we will agree to differ, and as a published writer in over seventy magazines and newspapers worldwide in thirty-four years of writing - i will stanbd my vocabulary up against yours any day and time you choose.
I stand by what i have said, and the reasons i have outlined for saying it.
Once again - as so often, you are a lone voice in taking me to ask, as you do to others - but no-one has ever done it with the regularity and superiority that you bring.
"Then that is just saying something for your obvious lack of vocabulary."
As i say - we will agree to differ, and as a published writer in over seventy magazines and newspapers worldwide in thirty-four years of writing - i will stanbd my vocabulary up against yours any day and time you choose.
AOG - "No Andy I should stop digging if I were you."
But you are not me.
I prefer to put my point and see if it sparks any further debate.
You prefer to pick apart the posts that disagree with you in minute detail, instead of actively participating in someone else's thread - as the rest of us do.
No - indeed - you are not me.
But you are not me.
I prefer to put my point and see if it sparks any further debate.
You prefer to pick apart the posts that disagree with you in minute detail, instead of actively participating in someone else's thread - as the rest of us do.
No - indeed - you are not me.
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