Sinn Fein look Blair in the eye

[Dom Tuk]

How can Blair look Gerry Adams in the eye during future discussions. After all he knew everything that the SF leaders were saying in private. Everything that happened was in bad faith. How can they trust him now??

[El D]

I would guess in the same way that Adams did while he was a standing member on the army council. I doubt very much there is any good faith left in NI.

[johnlambert]

Trust him now? it's a didgrace that we ever trusted him in the first place,

[Zen]

They've both got more faces then the Town Hall clock so looking each other in the eye would be very difficult !!!

[luckystrike]

Well said El D.

Let's be honest, how can the British government - who are there to protect their citizens - trust a terrorist organisation who have been responsible for:

hundreds and hundreds of murders of British security forces, innocent children, pensioners, etc.

thousands of horrific and brutal 'punishment' attacks on children as young as 12

bombings and large scale distruction

torture

blackmail

drug running

extorsion

intimidation

theft

robberies

organised violent crime

frequent roiting

prostitution

illegal gambling

money laundering

tax evasion

smuggling

arms and explosive dealing

international terrorist training

You get the drift...

[noxlumos]

and how can the Catholic population of the North trust the British who initially intervened to protect us from Protestant murder squads and sectarian attacks after peaceful civil protest, only to end up helping those very same murder squads?

Get your history straight before you start waffling about the evils of Republicanism or was I dreaming when I was eight years old and my house was burned down by a Proddie mob, or when my gentle friend was shot in the back of the head because he was the wrong religion?

We've all suffered in the north and in order that that's brought to a halt we all need to talk, so I just hope they do look each other in the eye and everyone is able to get over the kneejerk way they feel about people who

might have done ill in the past but now are trying to make something positive and better.

why should sinn Fein be excluded when war mongering Paisely would not be? He inflamed the situation in the north resulting in untold atacks on the Catholic community, or is that ok because he's not IRA?

why do the Brits never acknowledge that the Loylists kill as many as the Republicns ( that is a fact) and that the Army has colluded with them over scores of kidnaps, tortures and deaths.

If you doubt it, and I daresay you will,just google

Pat Finucane, Seamus Ludlow.

If I were english I'd personally have a huge problem trusting my own government who knew in advance about the Omagh Bomb but chose to do nothing about it in order to protect one of their spies.

Please can we not all work together to make this situation better instead of slinging mud and making reasons why we can't talk to each other?

[gary baldy]

Its called 'diplomacy' and 'acting like grown ups' in an effort to create a lasting peace in Northern Ireland.
As noxy says - we must all talk to sort this out and it is only when certain sections continually throw their toys out of the pram that stalls the process.
noxy - not all of us Brits are ignorant to your situation - some of us have bothered to look beyond the headlines and got to know your country but it is refreshing to hear the truth from people like you once in a while.

[noxlumos]

Gary I feel I should apologise because upon reading it it does sound like a sweeping statement about the British people, none of whom I've ever had a problem with, I've always found them to be pleasant, reasonable and willing to hear how both sides of the coin fall, as individuals. It just makes my blood boil to hear all the same tired old reasons why we should all not communicate and bring an end to the killing.Isn't that what everyone should want?

[johnlambert]

noxlumos, im an ex soldier who did 7 tours in NI so we have probably met, I dont agree with everything you said however, after my 1st tour in west belfast ( Mcrory Park on the Falls/ Whiterock road), I imagined that if I had been born a catholic in Northern Ireland I would have joined the IRA, but I do agree that we should all sit around the table and talk. there is so much bad history in your part of the world for it all to be forgoten in one genreration, but we must give it a go, if that means talking to the likes of Adams and Paisley then so be it (I find the so called loyalist paramilitaries just as evil as the republican ones).

[spacechimp]

Don't worry, Blair won't be in office for very long.

[THECORBYLOON]

Nox have a look here and then tell me Loyalists have murdered as many as the Republicans and as for the Army's collusion with scores of kidnaps, tortures and death, where's the evidence?

[gary baldy]

Corbyloon- Catholic Civilians make up the largest percentage of deaths in The Troubles, way above Protestants and Armed Forces members.
As far as evidence about Loyalist/ British Secret service collusion goes - there is loads and loads but after a quick google search here is the most recent story:
http://www.relativesforjustice.com/pressreleas e/210206_agentwhite.htm

[noxlumos]

hi Corby, from those statistics ( date for those???) which are clearly not 100% reliable, as nothing in this type of thing can be, I make it about 1400 people killed by loyalist/security services and about 1900 by republicans with a fairly large unknown media in the middle.Whilst that clearly is not exactly 50/50 it's near enough given the margin for error ( people like IPLO generally don't claim responsibility, so clearly in some instances on both sides this is someone's opinion of who killed them). As for security force and army collusion I'll just refer you to one of your own, Sir John Stephens, who struggled against a brick wall of misinformation, obstruction, threats, lies, stealing and destruction of evidence when he attempted to get to the bottom of the degree of involvement with army and security forces in the murders of civilians in the north in conjunction with loyalist paramilitaries.

The "steaknife " incident is enough for most people to understand or do you need it pointed out in a blow by blow account which I'm sure would get tedious for most people as the knowledge is so public as to be almost universally known.Surely you are not so naieve to suggest that the security services never steered loyalist hit squads towards republicans they wanted out of the way?Or is that what you are saying because I am genuinely interested in how anyone can ignore the mountain of evidence to that effect.

[noxlumos]

Cheers Gary, I cross posted:)

[THECORBYLOON]

Nox the figures are for the period July 1969 to Dec 31st 2001

Republican murders, 2,055 (1013 Security personnel murdered by the IRA alone)

Loyalist murders 1,020

Deaths by Security Forces 368

648 Catholics were murdered by Loyalists during that period.

These figures do not support any of the statements made by nox and gary baldy.

Regarding the collusion of Security Forces, I am not that na�ve that I believe NONE took place but what I dispute is the fact that there have been SCORES of cases

[noxlumos]

How do you add that up Corby? I've looked again & find my initial summary of the figures to be accurate.I am not trying to say that the Republican side are necessarily less to blame than the Loyalists,but you seem blinkered to the fact that it's six of one & half a dozen of the other there because everything is tit for tat.If you are ex army or have lost someone to the troubles then I can understand your feelings,but a death is a death whoever it is and all these numbers you seem so keen on nailing down are actually people & we need to stop & think about that if we are to move on and leave all this behind.Whether it's my friend,my father,or your comrade,your neighbour,it doesn't matter,they all had their lives taken because for some reason one of the most eloquent nations in the world finds it hard to speak to each other. I would like to feel able to live in my native city with my children, safe in the knowledge that it didn't matter a toss what religion they are and without fear that they will be lured into paramilitary activity or be the victim of it.If we don't get our heads from up our a****s we're all stuffed for another generation, hardly the way forward is it? Is it not better for both sides to admit to the mistakes of the past & then communicate & make the future better or shall we all just not talk to one group because they killed one person more than the other side, and let it all continue?As to collusion between security forces and loyalists, you do acknowledge it then (but still picking over numbers) & still find both parties acceptable yet not Sinn Fein?Isn't that the whole problem with this situation, that we make excuses for our own sides yet others who do the same things on other "sides" are monsters?We are all people, no more no less, and we'd all do well to remember it.

[THECORBYLOON]

The figures are from a different part of the same site but from the same persons figures, here.

[noxlumos]

hi corby a second look at those stats makes them all the more pointless because they state that they exclude all sorts of deaths that clearly should be included such as suicides because of attacks and mutiliations, sectarian rows between individuals and heart attacks etc brought about by attacks and "accidental shooting" ( does that include mistaken identity I wonder?).

If you look closely we nearly agree about figures anyway Corby because I stated that there were approx 1900 republican killings and 1400 loyalist and security forces killings and you point out that there were 2055 republican killings and 1383 killing by loyalists and the security forces, not too much of a difference when you are rounding figures about.

I don't think statistics really matter tbh, other than for instances like the one we are engaged in now, I think one dead person is one too many on either side.

[gary baldy]

Ive been desperately trying to find the stats that i saw recently re. catholic civilians etc but cant find them.
I do remember being surprised that catholic civilians made up the largest group of deaths (around 850 i seem to remember).
As noxy says though this isnt about stats this is about peoples lives and my argument is that the Catholic community in NI has been hit the worse (and from all sides socially, economically, housing provision, unemployment etc).
I think we should cut some slack to those with , shall we say, a dark past if they are now commited to a meaningful peace in the future.

[johnlambert]

It seems to me that a we are forever in the being dragged down in the "who started it" arguement. Looking at the posts on this site its like trying to find out which faction has killed more than the other. Thats the kind of mentallity that got us in the situation in the 1st place. We need to put the past behind us, realise that we have different religious convictions and respect others and the sanctity of human life and get on with it.