Israel / Palestine

[frankmckay]

Israel / Palestine; the U.S. (& most of the 'West') always back Israel. What views on the occupation by Israel of Palestinian territory ?

[incitatus]

The US supports Israel because of the enormous Jewish lobby in the US. It was largely US money from these organisations that funded the terrorist campaign that led to the founding of Israel.
Opinion? pretty low. How would we feel if the UN said that our country now belonged to the Eskimos and we all had to a) live here as second-class citizens having been paid a pittance for our land, and being deprived of the vote or b) move to Wales.

[MistyLady]

Whoa there incitatus!!!!! Just because Birchy is having digs at you don't go picking on the Welsh. Bring on the Eskimos I say.

[incitatus]

Being 1/4 welsh I feel entitled. Anyway, it wasn't a dig, I just picked a neighbouring country at random....can I substitute Rockall?

[steveUSA]

First, there is no such thing as "Palestinian territory." There never has been a Palestinian nation, as opposed to a Jewish nation which has historical roots. So you could see the Palestinians as squatters on Israeli land (certainly a series of wars in the last century determined whose land it is). I think it is important to note that the other Arab nations do not want to include Palestinians in their nations, either. Second, Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. No Arab nation has made a serious effort to establish a real democracy, no matter how Egypt and Iran like to view themselves. Why would we not support Israel?

[incitatus]

1) The palestinian "nation" has existed since the destruction of Judea in one form or another. The Palestinian Mandate is one example of this, which was doing fairly well with League of Nations and UN support until it was toppled by a bloody and ruthless campaign of terrorism. It has historcial roots too, though they don't form part of a biased monotheistic religion. You can't select which piece of history to look at to back up your claim. 2) Israel is a democracy in the same way that South Africa used to be. The majority of its inhabitants are without a voice, and are the subject of brutal repression including detainment without trial and torture. 3) As to why we shouldnt support them: How many other nations which engage in ethnic cleansing and ruthless expansionism do the UK and US support. Being the victims of genocide does not give you the right to do it yourself. The reason other arab nations do not want palestinians in their midst is that they have enough problems of their own, without having to cope with the displaced people of a land that has been stolen, and their militant tendancies. I don't condone the violence on any side, but I do understand where the Palestinian people are coming from.

[steveUSA]

To use your numbers: 1) Point to a place in history when there has been an independent Palestinian nation. Throughout history the land in this region has been an Israeli nation or an occupied territory of some larger empire. I would argue that the British Mandate, even though it was under UN auspices, was a continuation of this trend. 2) My point was that the citizens of Israel enjoy a democratic form of government. The treatment of non-citizens is a different issue. Regardless, why does every Arab nation prevent the development of democracy? 3) The Arab nations have done nothing for the Palestinians for decades except feed their hatred of the Israelis. During the 50s, the pan-Arab movement was growing, but in the end it failed. Since then, the Palestinians have been more or less abandoned by their Arab brothers. And the Palestinians are unwanted in Arab nations because their "militant activities" would likely draw those nations into another war against Israel -- and we all know how those turn out. Finally, every Arab nation (not to mention all of the terrorist groups like the PLO, Hamas, etc.) is committed to the eradication of the Israeli state. (Israel has no equivalent policy.) How can anyone support nations/groups with such policies?

[incitatus]

Any period from 90 AD to 1099AD. and the Israeli state as an independent entity lasted for less than 500 years, by the way. 2) Substitute African American for palestinian and you might get the point. These people ARE citizens but are not treated as such. 3) The Arab nations have shelterd several hundred thousand refugees in camps since 1948. They dislike having foreign armies on their soil as much as anyone else but they have done more for the inhabitants of Palestine than the Israeli's. Dont gloat about Israel's foreign wars, the last one didnt go too well, did it? Got kicked out of southern Lebanon, and their behaviour while there earned them the disgust of the civilised world. Egypt recognised Israel in 1976. The PLO did likewise recently. Israeli policy, including the kidnap of foreign nationals and the invasion without declaration of war of others territory is nothing to write home about.

[incitatus]

And why do the Arabs feel that way? Try this: After a terrorist campaign along the whole eatern seaboard, the governor of California flees. California is declared an independent state by a group of Native AMericans who have spent the last thousand years living in Russia. Californians are given the option to stay, with no land rights and little compensation, but most flee to neighbouring states fearing a continuation of the terror. How long will it be before the other states in the Union recognise California's sovereignty? Don't try and pretend that a love for democracy is a prerequisite for US support. Chile. The Phillipines. Vietnam. Even the Contra's. US support is an expression of US interests, either electoral (Israel) or commercial (pretty much all the rest), and we all know it. Read Noam Chomsky for a detailed breakdown.

[frankmckay]

Interesting posts. I thin it is a shame that the Israelis are Colonising the area 'formerly known as Palestine'. (My words) The British Administration must shoulder much of the blame since the Balfour Declaration initiated the modern zionist movement. The U.S. and U.K. are today using Israel for imperial purposes. Israeli State Terrorism goes unchecked. The U.K. / US should re-visit the Balfour Declaration - extract here, Quote: 'His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.' Unquote. Do these old men, Sharon & cohorts, think that by their continuing oppression of the Palestinian people, they are contributing to a peaceful state for their grandchildren. I think not.

[USAgentleman]

There are three main reasons that the United States supports Israel: 1.) Regional allies are in the best interests of the U.S. 2.) The U.S. has a very influential Jewish lobby. 3.) Israel is a stable, Western style democracy that the can relate to. To comment on some recent comments: 1.)The history of the area now called Palestine is an interesting one. Suffice it to say, for most of it's history it has been ruled by larger empires. After the Israelites, the area was ruled by the Persians, followed by the Greeks, the Romans, Arabs, Ottoman Turks, and later the British. I neither recall nor can find any evidence of a completely independent Palestine in history; the area was for much of the common era (CE, aka AD) part of a larger empire, although with varying degrees of autonomy, including between 90CE and 1099CE. 2.) Not all Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories are 'Full' Israeli citizens. Not all areas were appended completely to Israel by Israeli law. Complicated, so I'll save a more complete explanation for another day. Oh, and blacks in America are in no way second class citizens. That may have been true 50 years ago, but not today. 3.) The Arab neighbors of Israel aren't in much of a position to help the Palestinians a great deal; they have problems of their own to deal with. Palestinian violence only hurts their cause. At no time in history has terrorism ever been wholly successful. Take a look at Northern Ireland. The Palestinians should take a page from the book of ML King and Gandhi...passive resistance would get them so much in terms of international support, and hopefully lead to peace. Instead, as per Islamic law they claim, they choose the path of violence. Israel is no saint, and many of it's own actions should probably be condemned. But as long as we see a lot of suicide bombing, the West will have a hard time siding with them.