When did IV for 4 replace IIII

[MarzipanQ]

Just been looking at some numbered murals that were uncovered in a bathhouse in Pompeii and noticed that the 4th mural was numbered IIII and not as I expected as IV? Was there a time it changed or was using IIII/IV optional?

[cancross]

The article here offers some background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals

(See Origins)

[MarzipanQ]

Oh er - thank you for the answer - I'm such a twit for not googling it myself! Mind you, it's such a comprehensive entry on Wilkpedia I think I'll just get more confused lol. I'll just enjoy the illustrations in my book & not bother my blonde head with the numbering;)

[jno]

you'll notice they usually use IIII on clocks, probably so people won't confuse IV with VI

[fredpuli47]

IIII and IV coexisted in ancient Rome, but IV came to be accepted as the educated man's way of writing it. However, IIII was preferred on monuments, perhaps for the simple reason that masons found it easier to carve IIII than IV without making a mistake . They had the same preference, and the same reason, for preferring I to J. (Latin allowed I as an alternative to J at the beginning of some words. The god Jupiter's name was written Juppiter but could be written Iuppiter. Either way it was pronounced like you-pitta, not joo-pitta ! )

On clocks, IIII is traditional. Written as IIII it balances VIII on the other side, which IV would not do. Clockmakers put the first stroke of the V in a bold thick line and the second very lightly, so that there are four obvious thick lines in the VIII and four obvious thick lines in the IIII, thereby achieving some symmetry.

[jno]

I'm not sure the Romans even had a J, fredpuli - they used I as a vowel and as a consonant, a sort of Y sound, as you say for Youpita. The sound didn't develop into the modern J until later, as far as anyone can tell, and the letter J not till medieval times.

[MarzipanQ]

Many thanks to all who took the time to reply & especially fredpuli - I'm content now:) As to the Y/J mini debate my mind has been cast back 45 years to the dreaded Latin lessons:( Thank you folks.

[Quizmonster]

Clock-faces with Roman numerals usually represent 4 by IIII rather than IV. This, as stated above, is generally taken to be so that the four elements of the number better balances the four elements of VIII for 8 on the same level at the other side. However, the clock-faces on the �Big Ben' tower at the Palace of Westminster - probably the best-known such clock-face in the entire world - actually uses IV for 4! Click here for a close-up picture of it. It shows clearly - though almost upside-down - that the 4 is IV and not IIII.
In Roman times either form was used, but legend has it that the IIII tradition for clocks began when a French clockmaker made a timepiece for the king. The latter decided that IV was wrong and - when the clockmaker insisted it was right - he was reminded that the king was never - ever - wrong! So the IIII version was preferred thereafter. Believe that or not, as you please!

[THECORBYLOON]

You are taking advantage of a law that allows you to drive a minibus on a pre 97 Driving Licence. Anyone who got their licence from 1997 cannot do the same. Why is that fair?

[THECORBYLOON]

Pretend you didn't see ma previous post, okay?

[jno]

TCL means of course a MCMLXXXXVII licence

[fredpuli47]

jno , no J ?. Lewis and Short, the standard Latin dictionary: has got 12 pages and some hundreds of words beginning J :-)
The idea that there was no J is a product of modern , simplified, teaching of Latin where I is substituted for J e.g iam for jam (losing the old schoolboy joke about Caesar having 'jam forte', jam for tea),iudex for judex. maior for major, eiectus for ejectus. [Interesting that we have kept the J in the English words derived from those, but changed the pronunciation] Lewis and Short says that originally I and J were the same character but the ancients distinguished between the sounds and effects of each (e.g.; J was said to lengthen the vowel preceding it); and started to write the 'J' ones as J and I ones as I [the dictionary has 40 lines of miniscule print explaining all this !]. So Classical Latin had lots of Js. The Romans themselves often used J and I interchangeably, to the relief of masons (who also carved U as V, that being easier!)

[Fitzwilly]

IV was the Roman name for god. Roman numerals would have read I, II, III, GOD, V, etc., therefore, IIII was used for the number 4. Clock makers, for unknown reasons, substituted IV for IIII.