Listener 4333 - Discussion And Appreciation

[sunny-dave]

Listener No. 4333 - In the Event of Fire by Flying Tortoise

This thread is for the traditional 'elliptical' discussion, comments and thanks to the setter.

If you want to participate in a more direct conversation, a parallel thread has been started entitled "Listener 4333 - Hints and Help". There will be a link to this in the first reply on here.

[maurice]

Ugly: I now realize I should have put this little bit of help on the other AB thread, or rather you should have asked for it there (new system here, explained at the beginning). Apologies to all.
If you really want to see what many people thought of this puzzle, you have to go to Crossword Solver, the other forum (see long discussions on both forums since last Friday).

[UglyUncle]

Perseverer (Perse seems far too familiar), I have been called Ugly by many, and no offence taken.

In the four wonderful books by Willans and Searle, fotherington-tomas (never capitalised) is regarded with scorn by Molesworth for, inter alia, his unfailing kindness to others, despite much provocation ('I forgive you, Molesworth, for those uncouth words'). Although RR is certainly not 'uterly wet and a weed' I was guessing that Upsetter might have had her benevolent abstraction from the habit of negativity in mind when making his own positive assessment of the puzzle.

[Ruthrobin]

Thanks, Ugly (said with a smile). I used to be quite a fan of Molesworth and hadn't actually recognised the Fotherington-Thomas quotations as references to my benevolent refusal to be negative about another setter's compilation. (Though even I haven't been over-enthusiastic this week).
The principle was defined by Radix, a good friend. If you examine his years of opening of threads on the Crossword Centre message board, you'll see his rule "If you have nothing good to say, say nothing - but you can usually find a positive aspect of a compilation." One of the top 15-squared bloggers said exactly the same to me and since I often start a blog (it's no secret that I am a ski instructor and on the slopes early on a Saturday so I shall continue to solve and begin a thread on Friday when - and never before - we have a full grid, or join in if one is already started - even if that upsets fellow ABers - sorry!)
I try to do the 'Hello sky' thing and begin in the most generous way I can, without giving any spoilers.
But you won't have any 'Hello sky' from me next week - it's the quarterly numerical.

[icynorth]

Greetings all, As a relative newcomer, I found this the hardest this year to complete. Although the initial grid was straightforward, the following stages of interpreting the grid treatments, determining the quotation and then locating it in the grid were very tough, and could have been better prompted. I'm pleased to have solved it now, and I believe that one interpretation of the final quotation is a stronger candidate than the others.

But if the setter's watching, please don't take this as criticism - I thought it was a very clever theme, and well clued.

[sunny-dave]

RR (and other Friday solvers) - if you think my initiative with the dual threads was useful, could you consider continuing it?

I rarely get a chance to look at the puzzle before the end of the weekend and so won't routinely (if ever) be the thread starter.

Dave

[Scorpius]

I have revised my opinion of this puzzle. I still think there are flaws, but having reconsidered the puzzle I now think the setter has pulled off a brilliant coup, a classic Listener finale.

[olichant]

Scorpius, you've made me nervous! Ah well, I'm all posted off now, so too late to worry. If you're thinking what I'm thinking, I had considered but dismissed it - but I have my doubts.

The puzzle prompted me to revisit the theme, for which many thanks, Flying Tortoise. It's amazing stuff.

[Philoctetes]

At this late stage, is it to far to observe that the question of the quotation seems to have opened a Pandora's Box?

[olichant]

Now, Pandora's box - that would make a fine theme for a thematic crossword. There's homework for the weekend!

[NickorWan]

The wonderful Radix taught me most of what I know about setting, but I tend to disagree with him on the matter of negative comment. I have learned from negative comment and would rather solvers said what they feel was a puzzle’s shortcomings than say nothing. I read all the comments that I can on puzzles, whether I have solved them or not, in order to see what went down well and what didn’t, as I suspect do a lot of setters. Your views are really valuable and I am thankful that you give them honestly. The only thing that I would say is that negative comments needn’t be nasty – it is a small world we operate in and we are all helping each other even if sometimes that help may involve criticism.

UglyUncle, the word that you see as redundant some see as helpful by telling us that we are looking for one thing rather than another. I realise that it also introduces a third possibility, but I thought an unlikely one and discarded it pretty quickly, so I found it helpful.

[Ruthrobin]

NickorWan, when I check-solve or vet a puzzle, my input is detailed and honest, though I try to encourage rather than hurt a new, inexperienced setter. I agree about the usefulness of ALL the comments and know that a lot of friends anxiously or eagerly await the reaction here and elsewhere. However, as I have implied above and I think Radix meant the same, there is a rather different angle involved in starting a thread.
My feeling, too, that I have expressed on these threads before, is that there must be kinder ways of expressing one's disappointment than words like 'underwhelmed'. That is a real downer for a setter who has perhaps put several months into his creation then waited two years to see it in print.

[Scorpius]

Olichant, apologies for making you nervous, but I don't think you need be. Given the latitude allowed with the Sabre puzzle, which was far less ambiguous than this one, I should imagine that at least two solutions will be allowed.
I think there are three possible solutions that largely or wholly comply with the preamble and the theme. Ironically, the one that in my view is wholly compliant is probably one that very few, if any, will submit. The other two both have a thematic flaw.