Help....I'm Stuck!

[craft1948]

I am stuck trying to find details of my great-great-grandparents.
The only census I can find any mention of them together as a family is in the 1871 census when they are in York.......details as follows.
Daniel Lawler born c1829 Birmingham Shoemaker (my gggrandad who died in 1876)
Ann his wife born in Belfast (I can't tell from the 1871 census if she was 36 or 30 on the original transcript) On their daughter Ann's birth certificate she is shown as Ann Savage formerly known as Ryan.
Also on the census is Mary Lawler born c1861 in Newcastle, James Lawler born c1867 in Newcastle., and Annie Lawler (my great-grandma) born 1869 in York.
I cannot find any trace of them before 1871 including birth or marriage records, but think Ann may have been married before (hence the 2 names) and given the gap in the children's ages Mary, or indeed James, may not have been Daniel's child.
Daniel died in York in 1876 and I cannot find any trace of his widow or children on the 1881 census, my great-grandma only shows in the 1891 census after she had married my great-grandad.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I have looked at this so many times I'm completely lost.

[dothawkes31]

Did they have a son called John Daniel Lawler born 3rd august 1871 and baptised at All saints pavement?

[craft1948]

Hi dot..............I don't know as the only evidence of them even existing is the 1871 census.....

[craft1948]

I've looked at the John Daniel and he looks a good bet for being their child, but I can only find him on the 1901 census, not in 1881 or 1891.....

[dothawkes31]

I think I;ve found Daniel Lawler on the 1851 census.
He's the right age 22, a shoemaker and the enumerator has abbreviated his birth place and the transcriber I think has transcribed it wrongly, look at HO 107 2211 folio 476. it is the 1851 for Great Bolton, search on ancestry or jane boyle born 1796 Ireland to be quicker
I think that birthplace is Kings Cross Birmingham

[dothawkes31]

Unless it is Kings County and he was born in ireland of course, most lawlers seem to have been that early

[craft1948]

Got him dot.....hmm he just puts Birmingham in the 1871 census.

[dothawkes31]

The person giving the enumerator in 1851 the info may have been mistaken about the birthplace i guess, it happened

[craft1948]

I think it may really be Ireland dot............I've now found a Daniel Lawlor aged 13 in Bolton in the 1841 census and all his family are shown as being from Ireland.

[dothawkes31]

I'd looked at him in the index but not opened the entry.

[craft1948]

Well the father Timothy is a Shoe Maker

[dothawkes31]

I've found Ann Ryan hang on

[dothawkes31]

I've got an Ann nary nee ryan born Ireland and there is a Savage lodging there, Ptoblem is Ancestry have messed up and the transcribed page is out of sinc with the original, anyway, search for Daniel Ryan born 1801 Ireland living Heaton Norris Stockport, it defo looks a possible (1861 census)

[craft1948]

If she is shown as Savage formerly known as Ryan, would she have started off as Ryan, married a Savage before she married Lawler.

[dothawkes31]

yes she started off as Ryan and is married to a Niry in 1861 but there is a savage there who is a widower and so between 1861 and 1871 anything could have happened

[dothawkes31]

Did that look any good craft?

[craft1948]

sorry dot I'm not ignoring your great research but I've given up for a couple of days to clear my head.......I'll let you know when I've had a good look.

[dothawkes31]

No probs, I'm off all next week and so going to get pretty intense with bit for a few days. I;ve just had 2 certificates tghrough, death of my great grandad and great great great grandad and it's cost the £9.25 each but i expected it to take ages cos o the bank holiday, but i only ordered them saturday last and they came today!

[dothawkes31]

Craft do you have the piece number for them on the 1871 as they are not showing in the list with a search for lawler in york?

[craft1948]

What do you mean by piece number dot?
I couldn't find them in ancestry, but eventually found them in the genealogist.
The numbers quoted there are
Folio ref RG10/4745/F?
S&N File Ref CD24 R10_4745.pdf p.175 and CD24 R10_4745.pdf p.176

[dothawkes31]

Hi 4745 is the piece number craft, anyway i've found them on ancestry, but they have been transcribed as lawter, I'll let you alter it!!! I think ann's age is 30 as i you look lower down the enumerators sixes have a very tall curved arc. so it's RG 4745 , ED 21 All saints pavement, folio 87, schedule 13.