Fraud By False Representation

[EL2012]

i hope someone can help, Ive looked at sentencing guidelines and spoken to Solicitor but wondered if anyone had any actual experiences of this to relate the outcome...

I have not yet been charged but I am in a similar position to a lady who posted on here 6 weeks ago - I have bipolar, I swing between extreme highs and lows and suffer paranoid delusions as part of the disorder. I was experiencing paranoid delusions last year whereby I thought postal/courier packages were not arriving but they were, I was interviewed in Nov and arretsed for fraud by false representation (i.e. by claiming things have not arrived when audits carried out by postal service showed some had) and the house was searched. I am now receiving appropriate treatment for the Bipolar, and Im seeing a Psych one a month (thats the most the NHS can run to) - im under weekly visits from the CPN - I am due back at the station on bail in a fortnight after last return on bail being postponed as i suffered a miscarriage - I feel out of all of the stress of the situation -

I have not yet been charged but this will probably happen when I go back in a couple of weeks, if I am charged what timescales are we talking between charge, court appearance and sentencing - will Magistrates sentence or Crown?

I am scared, really scared..when I think about it I think about I have panic attacks and just the thought of going back to the station brings on suicidal thoughts let alone going to court, ill be pleading guilt regardless of what the Sol says just to get it over and done with and I did say this in interview thereforehopefully securing the "credit" offered by early guilty plea

.....can anyone offer any real life insight into outcome - Ive submitted to the Police (hopefully these have been passed to the CPS) medical information including two Psychiatrist's reports which state that the delusions are part of the disorder and the claims I made were likely due to lack of insight, a letter from the CPN stating further questioning and prosection would cause a significant deterioration in mental state - I dont think there is any chance the CPS wont prosecute me as we are possibly talking about 5-10K here value wise, I cant say for definite as i dont have recollection of the packages and what has/hasnt actually received butI would add the idea this was actually happening waslikely borne out of the fact that when we moved here we did have problems with couriers leaving items unattended at the front of the house that we never did receive and the same with postal parcels so I think it would be fair to argue it was not fraudulent from outset...

Anyway, sorry for the long post just trying to give as much info as possible in the event anyone can help with outcome.....I have spoken to Solicitor but I really hate to keep pestering her and Ive been up since the early hours worrying about this today already.

[FredPuli43]

What happened to the packages which arrived but were not shown as received by you? It is not clear. Yes, I know that doesn't go much to your mental state, but I'm wondering whether anybody gained from this. If these items were being stolen by somebody, or disposed of by you. the prosecution may wonder whether you were consciously causing the loss, thereby casting doubt on just how much your mental state was one of total unawareness of what you were doing in claiming the packages were not received.

[ronnietoon]

el i feel for you as close family member has type 1 bi-polar and i have witnessed it first hand.i wont go into the stuff they do when in an episode for anonymity.

with the amounts involved im not an expert but i think it will go to crown for sentencing if it is at that stage because of the money involved.

i am guessing you admitted what you've posted in interview?

the police and the cps treat everything like a game of football on weather to charge you or not(its supposed to be in the publics interest) they just want to win.

when the person in my opening paragraph did said things they were then sectioned.

one of the said things if i did it it would be a long custodial sentence.

i dont think you can get a letter from a cpn stating your illness i think it has to come from the psychiatrist.

as you are not in an episode now it wouldnt be a letter deeming you unfit to plea which would through the hole case out.

i know i am bambling but i cant see a custodial sentence.

[EL2012]

Hi, FredPuli not sure what you're asking, but I havent sold any of these things on so Ive made no profit and although they searched the house and dint retrieve anything they were loking for they aren't taking it to be that Ive made a profit - I havent- the items themselves are small insignificant things for eg childrens toys that have probably been given away as presents by me (another thing I get obsessive about due to the illness, generosity) so the financial gain would be me having the items that were claimed for, if you see what I mean.

Ronnietoon - thanks for your message, Im not in a manic episode right now, rather its the other way , in a severe depressive episode, CPN simply wrote a letter about the state of my current mental health i.e. severely depressed, the Psych report confirms the bipolar and its effects on my life -

[EL2012]

I should probably say too that I have two young children - 6 and 3 in ages - I thought it would go to Crown for sentencing but I have read of some cases of benefit fraud up to £20K sentenced in Magistrates.

[EDDIE51]

Personally I think there is a strong chance this will not go to court in view of your medical history. Even if it does there is ZERO chance of a custodial sentence.
It my even be of benefit to you in the long run as you clearly need expert help and this case may just highlight that need and be the key to getting help.
What ever you do , try not to worry too much , know far easier said than done. But this is not a serious offence . even if you had no medical isses it would never rate as a custodial sentence.

[EL2012]

That is actually the view the CPN took when she knew of how the latest "epidode" had come to light - and yes it has highlighted the extreme highs and all that comes with that, as well as the extreme lows, Ive only sought help before when Ive been extremely depressed and therefore for over a decade Ive had treatment for depression periodically - and then once the highs have kicked it Ive just stopped medication and not seen the need to continue, I know thats stupid and I should've realised sooner but there you are I didnt and I havent and now I feel we've paid the ultimate price in the loss of our baby, we'd be trying to get pregnant for almost a year but I lost the baby at 12 weeks scan when they could find no heartbeat, that was the harshest punishment, and severely affected my children and my husband too.
I am not holding out much hope for the CPS dropping the case to be honest, I was of the opinion they'd still be out for blood irrespective of my health - having said that Id read of a Doctor in Scotland with Bipolar who had "over claimed" £100K of housing benefits etc by not disclosing a property in SPain and a small NHS pension and she got a suspended sentence with no dependent children, I know noone can say for definite what will happen but there must be more "real life" experiences than the very very few isolated cases we've found reported online.

[FredPuli43]

I agree with Eddie. This isn't a case for custody. It's a case for help. I can't see much of a reason for the CPS to go on 'in the public interest' to be frank; there appears to be abundant medical evidence for them to think that going on is not in the public interest. There's some question about what exactly you thought you were doing and why and certainly one about your fitness to go through any trial, the result of which is not likely to be anything other than a non-custodial sentence

[EL2012]

Thank you both for your comments, how long do these things take, if I am charged at the end of this month how long will it be before magistrates to enter a plea, adjournment for pre-sentence report (?), and then sentencing - all presuming it doesnt go to Crown for sentencing....any idea?

[JTP-UK]

Fraud by False representation is an either way offence so you can elect for trial by jury at the Crown Court. I would seek legal advice on this but juries may be more lenient to your case than a Magistrate.

You mention in your first post that “I think it would be fair to argue it was not fraudulent from outset...” If what you say regarding your disorder is correct (and I don’t doubt that it is) then you are surely arguing that none of it was fraudulent.

To commit an offence of fraud by misrepresentation contrary to section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 you must make a false representation, which you have. However, you must also fulfill the necessary mental elements of the offence:

1. You must have knowledge that the representation is untrue or misleading.
- Which because of your disorder you did not.

2. You must have an intention to make a gain for yourself or another or cause a loss to another.
- Which again because of your disorder you did not.

3. The representation must be dishonest.
- The test for dishonesty is as follows (the answer to both must be yes for your representation to be dishonest):

1. Was your conduct dishonest to the standards of reasonable and honest people?

2. Did you realise that what you were doing was dishonest by the standards of reasonable and honest people?

All three mental elements must be satisfied which according to your post are not. In court this would be a matter for the Magistrate or jury to decide.

The maximum sentence for this offence is 10 years imprisonment, therefore, you MUST seek legal advice on your plea – pleading guilty to gain some leniency on your sentence is not advisable if you are innocent.

[ronnietoon]

magistrates in your case 3-8 weeks,crown 2-8 months,depending where you live.

please i know it is easy for me to say sitting behind a keyboard but do not worry and eddie51 is spot on

[joko]

how can the items be insignificant - if their value is 10k ...? thats a hell of a lot of childrens toys etc...

if this is true...which i am sorry to say i have my doubts... then you have given your friends £10,000s worth of goods, surely they must still have it all...right?

ask them... then they can verify that you gave it to them... then ask them all to speak to the police etc to confirm they were gifts...not sold...


because to me it reads like you have just deliberately ordered loads of small stuff online - ebay? - and claimed it didnt arrive - knowing that most people dont bother with signed for delivery for little things, nor do they bother to seek compensation etc from the post office - and you just hoped you would just get refunds from paypal etc and then sell the stuff...lots of people do it on ebay etc.
your bipolar may have made you think that this was a foolproof plan, but obviously you did it too many times - you must have made hundreds of claims to total 10k
and that you are now using the bipolar to try to get out of trouble

dont mean to sound harsh as i dont know whats true, but i am afraid if i am doubting your story, so too will many other people... jurors, police, judge etc

[EL2012]

thank you for your reponses, Ive not been back to check for a while, I appreciate what you're saying about the mental element needing to be present for it to be fraud, so yes on that basis I don't think it can be deemed fraud -

Joko, thanks for your reply and your opinion, it makes me realise people may not be too sympathetic to my predicament and disorder and I have to consider that there could be any number of people with your opinion on a jury! Not all items were purchased from ebay, that only represents a small proportion since a lot of the items were purchased online from high street retailers and couriers would have delivered, Ive probably even signed for some, but doesn't that really emphasize my belief that I was right in thinking they were being stolen in a big conspiracy...who in their right mind would sign for a parcel then claim it hadn't arrived and insist on enquiries being made?

I guess we will see in the long run what happens and how it turns out but in my humble opinion the bipolar itself is punishment as is the additional treatment now being undertaken but thank everyone for their comments and input.

[EL2012]

Oh and also Joko, they can speak to whoever they wish about whats been given to them, when and quite probably account for any item, they have been given to access to my ebay account and can easily see none of the few items Ive ever sold on ebay are connected to things Ive believed havent arrived, I just wanted to clarify that.