Paedophilia

[Oneeyedvic]

Paedophilia seems to be a crime that arrouses a lot of feeling in people/parents. Are people aware that in Spain, the age of consent for any (hetrosexual or gay) sexual ralationship is 13.

This essentially means that a European neighbour condones what we see as paedophilia.

We regularly hear about teenage parents and children under 16 having children. And of course, the issue of people like Gary Glitter and Michael Jackson hit the headlines big time.

So, what is the right age of consent?

[Oneeyedvic]

They increased the age from 12 to 13 in 1999.

Colombia & Peru - 12 (for female -14 for boys), Italy, Portugal, Canada & Hungary 14, France 15, Germany 16.

I would also be interested to know (if anyone can find out) how the teenage pregnancies / single mother stats compare to the UK.

[Drusilla]

The age of consent in any nation is based upon the norms and acceptable practice of that nation. In the past we had children and then adults. The concept of youth/teenagers was unheard of. You were either a child, or an adult. Once an adult you were considered ready for marriage and sex.

The legal age of consent was 12 in England and Wales until 1875, when it was raised to 13. It was increased to 16 in the 1885 Criminal Law Amendment Act.

I suppose early teen sex was acceptible in the past because young brides were considered more able to cope with the physical trauma of birth and once a girl began her period, she was and is, physiologically capable of having children.

The point I'm making is, by accepting the notion of youth and developing an education system that extends beyond childhood, we have in effect extended the old notion of childhood by 6-8 years and will forever have arguments as to where in that 'new period of adolescence', the age of consent needs to be placed.

Personally, I think 16 is a good safe bet.

[Buddy]

I am sorry to rain on your parade vic but I do hope you see this as relevant.

If you are raising an issue re grown men having sex with a 12 or 13 yr old that man is not normal.If you are referring to young boys of just turned 16 for example having sex with their 14yr old girfriend there is a huge difference.Still against Scottish Law but rarely brought to court.

I was a victim of a man who was 40yrs older than me - I was about 11 - it has NEVER - been discussed (we didnt do counselling then) but as I got older and more wordly I understood what he did to me and my friend.I do know he was jailed.2ys ago a paeo (who has done 4yrs) tried to entice my 14yr old daughter from her bedroom.Now girls nowadays are more savvy - but she was frightened.When I ran out he was in my garden still trying to get her.He made my daughter go through the ordeal of court and was found guilty.

Why do grown men want to take childhood away from OUR children.Let them at an age where they feel comfortable experiment (like I did) with our peers.My girl was fully informed about 15 of birth control etc (not the birds and the bees)

There is no excuse for mad paedos.I would have them hung drawn and quartered.They are dangerous men and leave a legacy in their wake.

[Buddy]

She obviously knew about the birds and the bees a few years before in case anyone picks me up (as if - LOL)

[Buddy]

I agree with Drusilla I think 16 is an acceptable age given you can get married and have children.Wouldnt do to have your husband or wife charged:)

[Oneeyedvic]

Buddy - you ar enot raining on my parade. I have asked a very moral question - and eveyone has a different standard.

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't aware of the Spanish age until this morning and I was / am appaled. Personally I feel it is too low, but I guess that is becasue I was brought up (as are the majority of people inthis country) thinking that 16 is the correct age.

That said, as with all moral issues, the boundaries change all the time. It was not that long ago when people were abhorred by the fact that interracial marriage happened - in fact some people still think it is wrong. Single mothers were completely frowned upon around 50 years ago - not so (much) now.

I am afraid I have no magic answers - as you say - not a lot wrong with a 14 year old girl having sex with a 16 year old boy. But what about if the boy was 18? What about 20, 22, 25.... you can see where I am going with this.

Morality changes all the time - it used to be totally illegal for gay sex in this country - next month we have gay civil ceremonies taking place.

Will we get to the stage that our morals (and subsequantly laws) say it is okay that once a girl has had her first period, she can become sexually active?

[Buddy]

Get back to you vic- gotta go out - see where you are coming from tho!

[haysi06]

Read this discussion with great interest.

Personally I think 16 is right. Childhood should be precious and protected. Kids grow up too soon now. sex education needs to be discussed more openly with children at the time that they can understand. In my opinion the high numbers of underage children having sex in Britain and teenage pregnancies is a direct result of their ignorance - this should be addressed

[Andy008]

It just irritates the hell out of me that I go out to work and pay tax to keep the likes of Roy Whiting, Ian Huntley et al living a life of luxury in prison.

Why can't these people simply be strung up and shot?

[lady_p_gold]

The issue is very difficult, but it is the age of consent and that does not mean that in these countries 13 year olds are all rushing around having sex. In fact it is probably happening a lot more here than it is there, so one could argue that our law is not really having the desired effect. If there is no consent it is still a crime at any age. What worries me more is the creeping tide of provocative and sexually explicit clothing which is now finding its way into main stream stores ..i.e. sexy underwear and thongs for girls of 7, T shirts that say 'naughty tease' etc for 6 six year olds and so on. A male friend of mine told me he was in a bar a few months ago and a very attractive girl was talking to him and he bought her a drink. She had on a very short skirt and was wearing a T shirt that said 'F*CK .. the only thing missing is U ... he then found out from talking to a mate that she had only just had her 13th birthday and he thought she was about 18. He said, what if he had taken her back home and had sex with her, he would be called a child molester. I am only saying this as I feel there is a sexualisation of children which is being pushed forward by the media and the manufacturers and sometimes amazingly by parents who buy these things. I find it all rather sinister and distasteful.

[El D]

Unfortunately we come to a great divide on this issue - parents will forever want to protect their children while children forever want to grow up and assume the mantle of adulthood to surpass all their embarassments. What I believe is happening now, as referenced by lady gold, is that children are increasingly, and perhaps unconsciously (eg drink, fast food ads targeted at youngsters), seeing greater sexuality as a means of assuming a greater maturity. However, due to a huge variety of factors, many British children are unaware of the added responsibilities of sexuality. It is thrust upon them in explicit songs and films with no caveat as to the power, and therefore potential harm, that sexuality possesses over humanity. Sex is seen as a means to an end and not respected for the part is plays in human life per se.

To answer your question directly vic, no I did not know that, but I find it a fascinating insight, the moreso because of your revulsion, and indeed like yourself I would be very interested in the stats behind it - although as is always touted I know the UK does have the worst teenage pregnancy problem in Europe. As has been pointed out before, the law does not dictate out actions, merely punishes them when we break it. Looking back throughout history, it is clear that the majority of cultures accepted that when a girl reaches physical maturity, it is accepted that sexual and mental maturity follows. I wonder if anyone has any stats as regards other contemporary cultures and their ages of consent? I note that we introduced it in the 19th century when British attitudes towards sexuality were most repressive.

Contrast this with my undoubted future attitude when or if I had a 13 year old daughter, I am curious as to how the 'Europeans' deal with such issues. In short, I have to sit on the fence pending further thought . . .

[kaktus]

I think, like others above that the "right" age of consent is very much linked to culture and norms. VIc I found this site that shows some numbers on teenage pregnances. I don't see UK on it and I'm a bit tired so I haven't looked for those. BTW the age of consent is 15 here in Denmark which I think is the right age, again I'm sure if it had been 16, I would have thought that was the right age.

I too think that 13 as the age of consent is set way too low, wonder what the approx age for actual having sexual relations is in Spain.

Hope my post makes sense, as said above I am a bit tired

[brachiopod]

Also rather too tired myself. But some excellent, well written and well thought out answers here. A variety of opinions, but all keeping a grip on objectivity.

Just the sort of thread that I have come to respect AB for - an emotive subject, but all contributors keeping their cool, and putting their point of view over with clarityand mutual respect.

Well done all.

[Oneeyedvic]

A couple of points to ponder:

1) Just wanted to show you this picture to illustrate a point: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/06/17/gallery.sharapova/content.2.html

Please bear in mind she is 14 in this picture.

2) The number of births to women under 20 (aged 15 - 19):

Spain - 7.9 births per thousand

UK - 30.8 births per thousand.

And also estimated number of 20 years old who have a child in their teens:

Spain 3%

UK 13%

http://www.unicef-icdc.org/publications/pdf/repcard3e.pdf

(these figures are from 1998 when the age of consent in Spain was 12 - they are the best i could find)

[mimififi]

http://www.studentbmj.com/issues/02/07/news/223.php

This site talks alot about the issues of our high teenage pregnancy rate (only other country higher than Uk is USA)

I happen to agree with the site when it suggests that the reason the Uk has such high pregnancy rates and underage sex is because of our nature to be prudish and secretive. Sex is still taboo in many households and even in school, when you try to talk to even a class of 14 year olds about sex, their attitude is infantile giggling and messing about. This is obviously to hide their embarrassment and own prudish nature.

In countries eg the Netherlands, sex and other aspect of life such as death, marriage, etc are so openly talked about that there is nothing taboo about it at all. Therefore, kids don't have to be so secretive with their behaviour. It is easy to go get your contraceptive because it's not embarrassing. They do the double dutch method, (pill and condoms...apparently)

However, to get back to the post: This is a far cry from middle aged men taking advantage of/raping young girls. Maybe the age of consent was removed, it would be removing the last obstacle in these sickos way.

On the pregnancy front here in UK too, there is also a big issue with te continuing poor self image our young people have. I don't know what the answer is to this, our young people always seem so depressed, where as continental youngsters seem so happy-go-;lucky. Why is that then???

[eupraxia]

It wasn't that long ago that the age of consent in this country was as low as Spains.

So called Victorian values saw to the change. Don't get me wrong child abuse is wrong and where there is no consent especially wrong.

As pointed out by some posters here we dress children as young as six in clothes I would feel uncomfortable if my 22 yearold daughter wore.

What I wanted to say is that if girls and boys are becoming sexually able at the age of 12 upwards then this is the natural course of events. Why do we try so hard to convince them its wrong.

I ought to point out that I have been a victim of abuse myself and know how damaging it can be. What is need is a far better understanding of how the human body works. Just what the laws should be and then at a suitable age, children should be taught the laws the rights and wrongs, how to protect themselves, not just against those who would abuse the right but from desease and pregnancy, When the time is right, and above all else that when they are ready sex is a beautiful thing, not to be afraid of or to be ashamed of in the least.

The key factor as always is enducation. Some thing that here we are sadly lacking.

Of course in an ideal world there would be no need for this but until that is sothen we must do all we can to stop people like Glitter and so on. They use ignorance to do what they do.

[Buddy]

Well said eupraxia.

I was graphic (I'll save you all from the details - too personal)l only because I dont feel I nor my daughter did anything to be ashamed of.

I openly debate this issue because it has been swept under the carpet for too long.

Years ago - like myself - we were threatened of dire consequences if we told our parents.

Thankfully children are a lot more wordly and savvy and most - not all will recognise potential danger and will tell their parents.

Vic - I realise I have drifted a wee bit from your Q but I along with another poster believes that lowering the age would be open house for paedos.I am aghast at Spains age of consent - how low do you go?.

[mimififi]

I think the age of consent is fine at 16. You rarely hear of kids being prosecuted for having it away with their own peer group. And if it is consential, then you don't hear anything at all, however, if there is foul play then you can add "underage" to the list of offences and it increases the seriousness of the crime. It may be the only thing that stops some bloke from thinking something and doing something, it might be the last post, so to speak....

Also, I would like to agree with Eupraxia also, in that young girls do dress in a highly inappropriate way, and as mothers, we have a responsibility to say to girls, especially prepubescent and pubescent girls that what they are wearing is innappropriate. You have a responsibility as a woman/girl to not feed the imaginations of these horrible men. They are capable of imaging enough without it being delivered on a plate for them.

I dress my little girls in little girls clothes, not as miniture replicas of adults. I encourage my rising teenage girl to dress beautifully, not tartly in clothes that I buy for her just becaue Im too old to wear them now.... I have even learned to make clothes for them as I have been so appalled at the clothes in the shops for their age sometimes.

I encourage my daughters to dress respectfully. When you dress like respect, you have respect, when you dress like trash, everyone who sees you thinks you are, and when you look in the mirror, you feel like you are.

These are all important aspects of this issue. Education goes further than just learning what your body does and who is and who isn't allowed to touch you, and which base you're allowed to go to at which age....it goes as far as teaching you are worthy of respect. Respect from your family, your friends, your lovers and yourself.