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Covid Vaccination
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Will you have it or wait to see if there are any side effects?
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// If a vaccine does not reduce viral transmission,//
christ this is a bit technical - do we know of any vaccine that works - but doesnt reduce transmission ?
https:/
discuss it Sep 2020
christ this is a bit technical - do we know of any vaccine that works - but doesnt reduce transmission ?
https:/
discuss it Sep 2020
Vagus, sorry for the delay but I was summoned to a unscheduled meeting.
OK, the thinking is that preventing symptomatic disease via vaccination will reduce the duration and level of infection in the community as a whole. This in turn would lead to a reduction in transmission. So by stopping infection, we should be stopping transmission.
There are issues with this all the same. If you've been vaccinated, the idea is that you don't get the infection anyway. However, if you are asymptomatic, you could still infect someone else.
For obvious reasons, Covid-19 transmission research has not been at the forefront of the minds of the scientists. Apart from anything else, it's very invasive, requires twice weekly swabbing and requires exposing people to the virus. This is why we need to appreciate that the battle has not been won over this devastating virus by vaccine development. Research is needed for many years to come.
OK, the thinking is that preventing symptomatic disease via vaccination will reduce the duration and level of infection in the community as a whole. This in turn would lead to a reduction in transmission. So by stopping infection, we should be stopping transmission.
There are issues with this all the same. If you've been vaccinated, the idea is that you don't get the infection anyway. However, if you are asymptomatic, you could still infect someone else.
For obvious reasons, Covid-19 transmission research has not been at the forefront of the minds of the scientists. Apart from anything else, it's very invasive, requires twice weekly swabbing and requires exposing people to the virus. This is why we need to appreciate that the battle has not been won over this devastating virus by vaccine development. Research is needed for many years to come.
jim360, it's politics and money. The Oxford vaccine is being provided at cost price by AstraZeneca for the duration of the pandemic. Remember, a high percentage of the researchers into Covid-19 have been academics who work in these disciplines as part of their day job - me included! This has resulted in a huge cost saving.
It is also being made and distributed by AstraZeneca in perpetuity in the developing world so no country is left out. It's truly admirable.
The Pfizer/BIONTECH vaccine is profitable for the companies involved but even the USA, the government is being charged around 20 dollars for the jab. It seems Pfizer/BIONTECH are keen to recover the R&D costs as they took no funding from the USA government when it was offered. There was also the research work done in Germany to consider. I understand that there was a low proportion of academics involved in research, so you could say the man power costs were higher.
It is also being made and distributed by AstraZeneca in perpetuity in the developing world so no country is left out. It's truly admirable.
The Pfizer/BIONTECH vaccine is profitable for the companies involved but even the USA, the government is being charged around 20 dollars for the jab. It seems Pfizer/BIONTECH are keen to recover the R&D costs as they took no funding from the USA government when it was offered. There was also the research work done in Germany to consider. I understand that there was a low proportion of academics involved in research, so you could say the man power costs were higher.
Thanks theprof, it’s kind of what I thought.
There was a bit of me that maybe believed, because of what’s been said previously, that part of the vaccine had the ability to stop a vaccinated person transmitting the virus, some kind of magic ingredient, but I just couldn’t fathom out how.
Thanks again. Keep up the good work :)
There was a bit of me that maybe believed, because of what’s been said previously, that part of the vaccine had the ability to stop a vaccinated person transmitting the virus, some kind of magic ingredient, but I just couldn’t fathom out how.
Thanks again. Keep up the good work :)
mibn2cweus, vaccination would not make you a transmitter if you were not previously exposed to the virus. The Pfizer vaccine produces a "genetic message" that tricks human cells to pump out individual coronavirus proteins that cannot assemble into the virus. The body then produces T-Cells and antibodies in response which are primed to attack the virus if it enters the body in the future.
In the Astra/Zeneca vaccine, an "engineered" harmless virus that cannot replicate in the body is injected. The body again produces antibodies to match the modified virus spike proteins. T-cells search out infected cells at the same time. Again, the body is primed to attack the virus if it enters in the future.
In theory, vaccination would affect the outcome as it's considered it would have an effect on the duration. A full blown Covid-19 infection requires the constant presence of the virion and anything that diminishes that would be beneficial.
Yes, everyone should have the vaccination as we have no idea how long recovered Covid-19 patients retain any immunity to the virus.
In the Astra/Zeneca vaccine, an "engineered" harmless virus that cannot replicate in the body is injected. The body again produces antibodies to match the modified virus spike proteins. T-cells search out infected cells at the same time. Again, the body is primed to attack the virus if it enters in the future.
In theory, vaccination would affect the outcome as it's considered it would have an effect on the duration. A full blown Covid-19 infection requires the constant presence of the virion and anything that diminishes that would be beneficial.
Yes, everyone should have the vaccination as we have no idea how long recovered Covid-19 patients retain any immunity to the virus.
Woofgang, assuming that you're thinking about the AstraZeneca vaccine, current half dose trials are being done using full dose size vials. The unused vaccine in the vial is then securely destroyed.
As I understand it, the company can readily change vial size should the need arise but right now, the outcome of the half-dose regime is not certain so everything stays the same for the time being. There is no real "value" in the discarded vial contents because of the agreements in place with the manufacturer. The cost per vial is likely to remain the same because of packaging, distribution costs, quality control etc as you thought. Some of this is commercially sensitive.
The second part of you're question is a matter for AstraZeneca to decide. I have no doubt that they are anxious to see the results of the very limited half-dose trials before making a decision and the views of the MHRA and other regulators. You also have to remember that by the time the results of any additional trials come to light, the quantity of vaccine required may differ from what the government have planned to date because the Pfizer and other vaccine contenders may have started being used. I wouldn't anticipate any real price changes here either.
As I understand it, the company can readily change vial size should the need arise but right now, the outcome of the half-dose regime is not certain so everything stays the same for the time being. There is no real "value" in the discarded vial contents because of the agreements in place with the manufacturer. The cost per vial is likely to remain the same because of packaging, distribution costs, quality control etc as you thought. Some of this is commercially sensitive.
The second part of you're question is a matter for AstraZeneca to decide. I have no doubt that they are anxious to see the results of the very limited half-dose trials before making a decision and the views of the MHRA and other regulators. You also have to remember that by the time the results of any additional trials come to light, the quantity of vaccine required may differ from what the government have planned to date because the Pfizer and other vaccine contenders may have started being used. I wouldn't anticipate any real price changes here either.
//These observations suggest that we cannot assume COVID-19 vaccines, will reduce virus transmission to a comparable degree.//
the only ref I cd find was ( v v technical pt coming up - most people can turn off here) was ref 12 where a Journal of Paeds report in 1958 ( excuse me). It said if you immunised a family with one paralysed victim with salk injectable polio vaccine then the family went on excreting live virus for the usual time ( no shortening).
I was surprised they made this point get up and run on such flimsy evidence. Hence my q of has it happened before
and no I didnt pay $25 for the copy
the only ref I cd find was ( v v technical pt coming up - most people can turn off here) was ref 12 where a Journal of Paeds report in 1958 ( excuse me). It said if you immunised a family with one paralysed victim with salk injectable polio vaccine then the family went on excreting live virus for the usual time ( no shortening).
I was surprised they made this point get up and run on such flimsy evidence. Hence my q of has it happened before
and no I didnt pay $25 for the copy
I just assumpted a non expert assumption that if someone's body can kill the virus then the time where they walk around carrying live transmissible virus is shortened and the shorter the time, the less potential to spread it...additionally (and now my brain hurts) if most people a vaccinated carrier bumps into are also vaccinated and therefore with a shorter potential transmission window, it can break transmission chains?
// wondering if a half dose regime would speed up production and therefore administration//
you are asking a researcher an economics question better addressed towards a bean counter ( me but I failed remember)
think - - - brown bread is white bread wivda brown put back in - the only way to make it economically profitable
half dose is only half cost....
( hahahahahaha o god they did this to us at the Childrens Hospital you know - you only have ickle people ill so your costs should be ickle. and your ickle ITU should be really really cheap. They were serious. then they said we were bad staff for not doing so)
half dose depends on - whether the insides are the costly bit or the packaging
Morphine is classically the counter example ( glass costs more than the morphine)
and remember that the actual production cost of the vaccine is the flasks and mRNA - and the production/research counts as a classical overhead. Having done it myself - you can make those what you want. and you can make it cost neutral at whatever level you want
were you think perhaps of the sixties solution - you and you - half a vial each?
no not today I think
you are asking a researcher an economics question better addressed towards a bean counter ( me but I failed remember)
think - - - brown bread is white bread wivda brown put back in - the only way to make it economically profitable
half dose is only half cost....
( hahahahahaha o god they did this to us at the Childrens Hospital you know - you only have ickle people ill so your costs should be ickle. and your ickle ITU should be really really cheap. They were serious. then they said we were bad staff for not doing so)
half dose depends on - whether the insides are the costly bit or the packaging
Morphine is classically the counter example ( glass costs more than the morphine)
and remember that the actual production cost of the vaccine is the flasks and mRNA - and the production/research counts as a classical overhead. Having done it myself - you can make those what you want. and you can make it cost neutral at whatever level you want
were you think perhaps of the sixties solution - you and you - half a vial each?
no not today I think
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