Spectator - Christmas Crossword -...
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Another honour killing
46 Answers
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles /news/news.html?in_article_id=562358&in_page_i d=1770
A blunt reminder to all those that are prepared to embrace Islam.
These vile crimes committed under the title of "Honour Killings", are not only common to Middle East countries, there have been a number of similar crimes committed in this country.
A blunt reminder to all those that are prepared to embrace Islam.
These vile crimes committed under the title of "Honour Killings", are not only common to Middle East countries, there have been a number of similar crimes committed in this country.
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One of our grand-daughters is going out with a Muslim boy. He says he is not into the religion but still obeys the Ramadam and other Islamic preachings. His parents are very against the relationship. The problem is she is far from being a virgin has slept with other fellas in the past and likely to do so in the future. At that age no reasoning can get through but sometimes we suspect the family will take revenge on any misdemeanour on her part.
Quite so.
Not content with seeing their niece murdered in cold blood, the wretched girl�s uncles then spat in her grave following her �simple burial�.
One of the most disturbing aspects of this case (and I have read the facts elsewhere, not only in the Daily Mail, in case anyone accuses me of reading sensationalist right wing propaganda) is that the Iraqi police, when acquainted with the facts of this case, took no action.
�...the case raises questions about the training given to British forces in understanding cultural values in a city where 47 women died in "honour killings" last year.�
Why on earth should British troops be trained in the �cultural values� of people who see butchering their children as a legitimate penalty for them talking to somebody of whom they do not approve?
One of the reasons UK troops are in Iraq (so we are told) is to help that country whilst its police become an effective force following the overthrow of Saddam. I also believe the UK is helping to train the Iraqi police force in this aim.
Just why are we wasting UK taxpayers� money when murder is committed, the perpreatrator is known to the police, but no action is taken?
I know that this sort of thing is not typical of all followers of Islam. But we need to seriously question our role in countries where such incidents, whilst comparatively rare, are not uncommon.
Not content with seeing their niece murdered in cold blood, the wretched girl�s uncles then spat in her grave following her �simple burial�.
One of the most disturbing aspects of this case (and I have read the facts elsewhere, not only in the Daily Mail, in case anyone accuses me of reading sensationalist right wing propaganda) is that the Iraqi police, when acquainted with the facts of this case, took no action.
�...the case raises questions about the training given to British forces in understanding cultural values in a city where 47 women died in "honour killings" last year.�
Why on earth should British troops be trained in the �cultural values� of people who see butchering their children as a legitimate penalty for them talking to somebody of whom they do not approve?
One of the reasons UK troops are in Iraq (so we are told) is to help that country whilst its police become an effective force following the overthrow of Saddam. I also believe the UK is helping to train the Iraqi police force in this aim.
Just why are we wasting UK taxpayers� money when murder is committed, the perpreatrator is known to the police, but no action is taken?
I know that this sort of thing is not typical of all followers of Islam. But we need to seriously question our role in countries where such incidents, whilst comparatively rare, are not uncommon.
A truly vile crime by a cowardly man and re-enforced by a 1300 year old book.
That oxymoron Honour killing has no place in the modern world and extreme forms of religions that encourage it should be condemned.
However, our own house is not completely in order. There are more than 100 murders of women attributed to domestic violence incidents in the UK every year. Same vile cowardice, just a different excuse.
http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/do mesticviolence/domesticviolence51.htm
That oxymoron Honour killing has no place in the modern world and extreme forms of religions that encourage it should be condemned.
However, our own house is not completely in order. There are more than 100 murders of women attributed to domestic violence incidents in the UK every year. Same vile cowardice, just a different excuse.
http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/do mesticviolence/domesticviolence51.htm
Probably because reforming attitudes in countries where the general level of education is low is not a quick process.
It's not that long ago that it was quite legal in this country to beat your wife as long as the stick was no thicker than your thumb (rule of thumb).
Go back further and we burnt old women as witches.
We made it through into a more modern value system but it didn't happen overnight.
Seem strange to think that it could in Iraq
It's not that long ago that it was quite legal in this country to beat your wife as long as the stick was no thicker than your thumb (rule of thumb).
Go back further and we burnt old women as witches.
We made it through into a more modern value system but it didn't happen overnight.
Seem strange to think that it could in Iraq
A truly vile crime by a cowardly man and re-enforced by a 1300 year old book. Gromit can you tell me where exactly it says in Quran that you should kill your daughter and label it as honour killing. Or give me any authentic source of information where it could be proved that Islam says that you should do this.
This so called honour killing is more to do with those cultural ailments which few people are still finding difficult to give up. This cultural problem is not only with Muslims, in a good number of countries believers of all the religions carry on these sort of vile acts. Only problem is that there is always more media coverage whenever there something to do with Muslims.
Otherwise, as Jake � the � peg said, Neither Islam says kill your daughters nor Christianity says that put your daughter in a underground cellar and rape here for over 24 years and be father of your own 7 grand children. I am 100% sure had this man been Muslim, then word Muslim would have definitely be printed in the news.
Anotheoldgit - A blunt reminder to all those that are prepared to embrace Islam. Trust me people who embrace Islam, they do so because of Islam and not the Muslims. And Islam without a doubt is the most practical religion. And your own words prove that.
This so called honour killing is more to do with those cultural ailments which few people are still finding difficult to give up. This cultural problem is not only with Muslims, in a good number of countries believers of all the religions carry on these sort of vile acts. Only problem is that there is always more media coverage whenever there something to do with Muslims.
Otherwise, as Jake � the � peg said, Neither Islam says kill your daughters nor Christianity says that put your daughter in a underground cellar and rape here for over 24 years and be father of your own 7 grand children. I am 100% sure had this man been Muslim, then word Muslim would have definitely be printed in the news.
Anotheoldgit - A blunt reminder to all those that are prepared to embrace Islam. Trust me people who embrace Islam, they do so because of Islam and not the Muslims. And Islam without a doubt is the most practical religion. And your own words prove that.
Did someone here embrace Islam 2 seconds before doing this all.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-n ational/article3652324.ece
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-n ational/article3652324.ece
keyplus90
I deliberately used the term "extreme forms of religions" rather than condemn Islam in general, because the Iraqi man would almost certainly be a follower of Wahhabism, a particularly strict form of Islam.
True, Quran does not instigate Honour Killings, but wahhabi scolars who 'interpret' the Quranic scriptures, do.
It is hard to find an unbiased sourse for wahhabism (there are a lot of Islam haters out there who take extreme wahhabism as proof that all Islamic religion is bad).
However, here is a piece from the Independent, which broadly corroborates my statement which you took exception to.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news /wahhabism-a-deadly-scripture-398516.html
I deliberately used the term "extreme forms of religions" rather than condemn Islam in general, because the Iraqi man would almost certainly be a follower of Wahhabism, a particularly strict form of Islam.
True, Quran does not instigate Honour Killings, but wahhabi scolars who 'interpret' the Quranic scriptures, do.
It is hard to find an unbiased sourse for wahhabism (there are a lot of Islam haters out there who take extreme wahhabism as proof that all Islamic religion is bad).
However, here is a piece from the Independent, which broadly corroborates my statement which you took exception to.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news /wahhabism-a-deadly-scripture-398516.html
Probably not, keyplus.
But it does intrigue me whenever this type of question is raised that some respondents seem to think that if they can provide examples illustrating how other sections of society behave, it somehow excuses the behaviour of Muslims.
All sections (that is, all races, genders, colours, creeds and religions) of society have their share of criminals and misfits. However, the example you quoted gives no indication that religion or �honour� (bound to religion) played a part in the terrible events. Nor is there any such indication in the Austrian case that religion was all or in part the motive.
Yes, there are cases where religion clearly does have a huge influence in people�s behaviour. I am thinking in particular of Northern Ireland where extreme violence was (and indeed still is, despite what we are led to believe) carried out in the name of religion. And those actions are reprehensible.
But the issues raised in this question clearly are linked to a particular religion and are particularly abhorrent. Nobody is suggesting that such actions are exclusive to followers of Islam, but are nearly always perpetrated by such followers.
It�s rather like considering whether to keep a tiger in your house. Not all tigers will kill you, but many will. So, if you�ve got any sense, you don�t keep a tiger in your house. Whilst it�s true that tigers are not the only animals who might kill you, that should not influence your decision.
But it does intrigue me whenever this type of question is raised that some respondents seem to think that if they can provide examples illustrating how other sections of society behave, it somehow excuses the behaviour of Muslims.
All sections (that is, all races, genders, colours, creeds and religions) of society have their share of criminals and misfits. However, the example you quoted gives no indication that religion or �honour� (bound to religion) played a part in the terrible events. Nor is there any such indication in the Austrian case that religion was all or in part the motive.
Yes, there are cases where religion clearly does have a huge influence in people�s behaviour. I am thinking in particular of Northern Ireland where extreme violence was (and indeed still is, despite what we are led to believe) carried out in the name of religion. And those actions are reprehensible.
But the issues raised in this question clearly are linked to a particular religion and are particularly abhorrent. Nobody is suggesting that such actions are exclusive to followers of Islam, but are nearly always perpetrated by such followers.
It�s rather like considering whether to keep a tiger in your house. Not all tigers will kill you, but many will. So, if you�ve got any sense, you don�t keep a tiger in your house. Whilst it�s true that tigers are not the only animals who might kill you, that should not influence your decision.
Honour killings are a dreadful indefnsible crime, but to assume that all Muslims condone such actions is as nonsensical as assuming that all Americans think the Ku Klux Klan were right on message for lynching blacks for not being anglo-saxon, Protesetant, and white!
It is important to remeber that for most Christians, religion is a way of life, for a lot of eastern Muslims, religion IS life - it is woven into the fabric of their everyday existance, and inevitable, some will take this to inhumane extremes.
sp1234, my mother diaspproved of my girlfriend for being a Catholic - predjudice can exist absolutely anywhere, you simply have to combat it as and when you find it - and refuse to be sucked in to the right-wing hysteria that the press love to generate.
Honour killings are all all killings, horrible, indefensible, and thankfully rare as part of the whole cultural picture.
It is important to remeber that for most Christians, religion is a way of life, for a lot of eastern Muslims, religion IS life - it is woven into the fabric of their everyday existance, and inevitable, some will take this to inhumane extremes.
sp1234, my mother diaspproved of my girlfriend for being a Catholic - predjudice can exist absolutely anywhere, you simply have to combat it as and when you find it - and refuse to be sucked in to the right-wing hysteria that the press love to generate.
Honour killings are all all killings, horrible, indefensible, and thankfully rare as part of the whole cultural picture.
Given the overwhelming majority of peaceful law-abidig Muslims, a better example would be a dog, New Judge.
It�s rather like considering whether to keep a dog in your house. Not all dogs will kill you, but a few will. So, if you�ve got any sense, you don�t keep a dog in your house. Whilst it�s true that dogs are not the only animals who might kill you, that should not influence your decision.
Yes, but we do in our millions, but we know the likelihood of harm is tiny.
See how it falls apart once you remove the Daily Mail assumption that a significant proportion of Muslims are dangerous?
It�s rather like considering whether to keep a dog in your house. Not all dogs will kill you, but a few will. So, if you�ve got any sense, you don�t keep a dog in your house. Whilst it�s true that dogs are not the only animals who might kill you, that should not influence your decision.
Yes, but we do in our millions, but we know the likelihood of harm is tiny.
See how it falls apart once you remove the Daily Mail assumption that a significant proportion of Muslims are dangerous?
In any case like this there are so many factors behind it. None justifies any act like this. However my point is that few newspapers are always quick to jump on any news which can manipulate people�s thinking about certain religions or cultures. I have read the link gromit gave about King Abdullah. Certain things there are just misinformation again, few might be right. Good thing is that people are not relying on any one source now a days. Quran is same word to word where ever in the world you get one. Difference is only for the people who have to rely on translation (None Arabs). Few respected scholars advise to look into at least three different translations with commentary if possible. Internet has made that so easy that anyone can afford doing that. Or other way is to listen to those scholars who are well respected for their unbiased knowledge.
Few people might still be reliant on distributed knowledge and I am sure they are not many.
New Judge If you believe that religious factors behind a killing makes it more condemnable that where there is no religion. Then let me tell you that Religion does speak against these and even tell you how to deal with people like these.
Brinon � has given a very valid difference. Again if that man was not arrested in Iraq (which I doubt), Islam told them not to arrest him? Or why do we not accept that country was far better under saddam�s control.
Few people might still be reliant on distributed knowledge and I am sure they are not many.
New Judge If you believe that religious factors behind a killing makes it more condemnable that where there is no religion. Then let me tell you that Religion does speak against these and even tell you how to deal with people like these.
Brinon � has given a very valid difference. Again if that man was not arrested in Iraq (which I doubt), Islam told them not to arrest him? Or why do we not accept that country was far better under saddam�s control.
keyplus90
I was talking with a follower of Wahhabism a few weeks ago and I found his views extremely dangerous. Amongst the many delights this young man had to offer, was that he said he would gladly kill an homosexual if he was told to do so. He thought this was ordered in Quran. He could read, had the internet and worships in a British mosque. He was deadly serious, he was not taking the micky.
There are extreme Christians who will kill innocent people to defend their faith.
There are extreme Jews who will kill innocent people to defend their faith.
And there are extreme Muslims who will kill innocent people to defend their faith. AOG example is one of these.
I was talking with a follower of Wahhabism a few weeks ago and I found his views extremely dangerous. Amongst the many delights this young man had to offer, was that he said he would gladly kill an homosexual if he was told to do so. He thought this was ordered in Quran. He could read, had the internet and worships in a British mosque. He was deadly serious, he was not taking the micky.
There are extreme Christians who will kill innocent people to defend their faith.
There are extreme Jews who will kill innocent people to defend their faith.
And there are extreme Muslims who will kill innocent people to defend their faith. AOG example is one of these.
It is not so long ago (and indeed, it might still be happening) that you could be murdered in the the UK for falling in love with someone from the other side of the sectarian divide. There were Catholics and Protestants murdered and their evil killers gave the same feeble excuse as the Iraqi father.
Islamophobes couldn't give a flying cuss about the girls who are killed in these circumstances.
They are overjoyed because it gives them the opportunity to paint an entire people with the same brush.
I saw in the paper today that six white youths were sentenced for killing a girl dressed as a Goth.
Can I assume then that all white youths should be avoided, as killers?
...because every day when I open the papers you see the same vacant stares from the same looking lads (cropped hair, dead souls)...should I be warning my nephews against associating with all white men because the ones who aren't killers are inevitably paedophiles?
They are overjoyed because it gives them the opportunity to paint an entire people with the same brush.
I saw in the paper today that six white youths were sentenced for killing a girl dressed as a Goth.
Can I assume then that all white youths should be avoided, as killers?
...because every day when I open the papers you see the same vacant stares from the same looking lads (cropped hair, dead souls)...should I be warning my nephews against associating with all white men because the ones who aren't killers are inevitably paedophiles?
Gromit � I respect your views. As far as I am concerned Islam does not have anything like Sunni, Shiah, Wahabi. Islam is very easy if you follow Quran and Sahih Hadiths. Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions (pbu them all) were simple Muslims. All these section are due to misinterpretation of few Ahadith�s. What he said about homosexuals is not right. Although Islam is against it but punishment is not killing or anything like this.
Finally I would say there are good and bad people every where in this world. Sometimes good and bad is decided on the basis of social and cultural values. There are so many things which might be very much acceptable and rather appreciable in one part of the world whereas the same would be considered bad somewhere else. Due to these differences sometimes it becomes difficult to understand the mental condition of others. But whatever the reasons few actions have never been appreciated and never will do in any religion. Killing someone unlawfully is right at the top of that list.
Finally I would say there are good and bad people every where in this world. Sometimes good and bad is decided on the basis of social and cultural values. There are so many things which might be very much acceptable and rather appreciable in one part of the world whereas the same would be considered bad somewhere else. Due to these differences sometimes it becomes difficult to understand the mental condition of others. But whatever the reasons few actions have never been appreciated and never will do in any religion. Killing someone unlawfully is right at the top of that list.
So is keeping your daughter imprisoned for 20 years and raping here a reminder to all those muslims thinking of embracing Christianity?
When did I compare this case to the case in Austria? But since you have brought it up. Who said this monster in Austria follows Christianity? He may be Muslim.
Your logic is so spectacularly flawed it's laughable!
This is much more applicable to yourself, Jake.
Jake-the-peg, along with his chums cannot just stick to the point in question. They must try and gloss over serious issues by trying to compare it to other matters that are not under discussion.
Would any reasonable person try and cover up that disgusting Austrian case, by accusing Muslims of their misdeeds? No, so why can't you stick to the question?
This is another gem of reasoning, from our Jake.
We made it through into a more modern value system but it didn't happen overnight.
Seem strange to think that it could in Iraq
Seeing that Iraqi civilisation goes much further back in time than our own, why are they still behaving like we did in the middle ages.
When did I compare this case to the case in Austria? But since you have brought it up. Who said this monster in Austria follows Christianity? He may be Muslim.
Your logic is so spectacularly flawed it's laughable!
This is much more applicable to yourself, Jake.
Jake-the-peg, along with his chums cannot just stick to the point in question. They must try and gloss over serious issues by trying to compare it to other matters that are not under discussion.
Would any reasonable person try and cover up that disgusting Austrian case, by accusing Muslims of their misdeeds? No, so why can't you stick to the question?
This is another gem of reasoning, from our Jake.
We made it through into a more modern value system but it didn't happen overnight.
Seem strange to think that it could in Iraq
Seeing that Iraqi civilisation goes much further back in time than our own, why are they still behaving like we did in the middle ages.
