pink you may be right in what you say, but also is gonzo - kick up the hole might do the trick!!! I have always taken the stance, 'I don't believe in hitting kids, but I believe if one needs a hit, then I'll give em one.' 15 most of them are wee turds at that age and l've told mine - "Just as long as you can get a job and the money to pay for a flat of your own, then youn door closes on the other side as well!" Thankfully, I've never had to thump them much, a LOOK from me was enough - also to their DA! Mind you, the kids, kids, could do with a wallop But hey, thats their Ma & Da's pay back time. I can now sit and laugh to myself Hmmmm.