boy or girl

[fruitsalad]

who determines the sex of a baby the man or the woman, or is it a bit of both?

[Andyvon]

Incidentally, if anyone takes the time to read the letters sent by Katherine of Aragon to Henry after he pushed her away, they really are very poignant. I'm an ugly great 48 year old fella of 6ft 5" - but they made me cry!

Anne Boleyn had Katherine evicted from Hampton Court and all her money, clothes and jewellery taken (which she then paraded in!). Katherine had to move to a cottage in Dunstable with two faithful ladies who begged food from the neighbours. When Katherine travelled from Hampton Court to Dunstable (Anne Boleyn made sure it was in a cart!) the whole route was lined with people who threw flowers in the path of the cart.

Once Henry's spell with Anne Boleyn had been broken he realised what she'd done. It was too late then though. Katherine had died penniless in her hovel.

Read the letters Katherine sent to Henry telling him she still loved him and asking what she had done to offend him. They are quite something. Katherine's tomb in Peterborough Cathedral has had fresh flowers placed on it every day since she died.

[jno]

Andyvon, bad press or not, it's hard to feel much sympathy for a man who has two of his wives decapitated. At least Catherine Howard was probably guilty as charged (and a complete idiot, considering what had happened to her cousin Anne Boleyn five years earlier), but the allegations against Anne were almost certainly trumped up.

[mike11111]

Quite! Anne Boleyn was no doubt a scheming little minx, but no traitor. The accusation of incest with her brother was preposterous. Unfortunately other innocent young men died as a result of her disgrace. Katharine Howard, by contrast, was a *** and, by the law of the time, guilty of treason. I always think it extremely fitting that Lady Jane Rochford, the sister of Anne Boleyn's brother, whose false evidence sent him to the scaffold, was beheaded immediately after Katherine Howard for misprision of treason. What goes around, comes around!

[Barmaid]

I thought that Katherine of Aragon died in Kimbolten Castle. I also thought that Katherine gave birth to a boy Henry who died at 7 weeks. A second son only lived a few days. A third son was still born.

It was however, widely rumoured at the time (not that I was there) that Anne had arranged for KoA to be poisened.

[mike11111]

The starred-out word spelt s.l.u.t. Never crossed my mind that that would be one for the swear filter.

[Andyvon]

I suppose it depends on the views and 'spin' of the different authors you read Jno. Katherine Howard knew what she was doing and she spent much time and effort arranging for her former lover to come to court as one of her staff. She fully planned to cheat on Henry after marrying him and she knew the consequences.

Anne Boleyn was also a very manipulative individual who wanted more than just being 'a bit on the side'. She set out to destroy Katherine of Aragon and did so. She was hated for it.

Times were more brutal and life meant little then. I've always felt uncomfortable about judging people from other times by passing them through a 21st century sieve. Henry was a wonderful king in his early years, but he did develop into something quite unpleasant. However, the two queens who were executed did work very hard to get their own heads cut off!

[mike11111]

Henry's last wife Katherine Parr, was also under threat for her percieved attraction to protestantism. Fortunately the warrant for her arrest accidentally fell out of the portfolio and she was forewarned. When questioned by the King, she replied that she had only feigned interest in order to hear the King's superior knowledge and divert him from the pain in his leg. The King was satisfied, and when they came to arrest her he sent them packing. One very clever lady, methinks!

[jno]

I know what you mean about not judging people from other eras by our own standards, Andyvon, but even in the 16th century rulers executing your wives was thought pretty barbaric.

In terms of national policy it was counterproductive; his first marriage was dynastic, tying England into European royalty; but the rest, apart from Anne of Cleves, just got him involved with the unreliable English aristocracy and their plots, because the eligible princesses of Europe understandably wouldn't touch him with a bargepole. I can understand the horrified fascination people still have for him, but sympathy? Not from me!

[Andyvon]

I didn't say I was sympathetic to Henry VIII Jno. He became a most unpleasant character in his later years. Today we would call hm a very dangerous man - like Saddam Hussein I suppose.

I just try to treat people fairly and see them in their real light. I think if you want to understand historical subjects and individuals you have to listen to all opinions and then look somewhere down the middle for the truth. It's wrong to follow the views of just one school of thought. In the same way that Henry wasn't a pleasant character, nor was he a murderous sex mainiac killing his wives when he became bored with them. That was the interpretation of the Victorians who were shocked that he married six times and that's the idea often alluded to today. It's not quite right.

That being said, I never liked Henry as an individual and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to meet him. He would have frightened me I think.

[jno]

no, I doubt he was a sex maniac, just a powerful man who fancied pretty girls, as many still do. But I'd have said much more unpleasant than Saddam - as I say, there's something specially personally weird about killing your wives, and that was as true in his own time as it is now.