Should I see my children if they don't want to see me?

[obNOXious]

Just got back from seeing my kids ( in Germany) for the first time in over a year, which in fairness to all concerned was my choice as I had to sort myself out and didn't want them in the line of fire whilst I was doing that so to speak.
Predictably I was not terribly welcome, not only from my ex, which I expected tbh, but also from my children.The littlest one didn't remember me at all ( again understandable) and my elder daughter with whom I have always been very close, was going out of her way to make me wish I wasn't there. The kids call her new boyfriend 'Papa', and he seems to have managed to walk right into the role. I don''t like him, he's arrogant, but if I am objective then he seems to be making a passable job of looking after my kids.My ex is pregnant by him and really does just wish I'd go away and die, although she was passably civil as always.
My question really is, they seem to be pretty settled over there, are getting on well with the language etc and clearly don't want to see me... I'm usually pretty okay with letting kids make their own choices, and at least my one daughter's (10 years old) choice appears to be not to see me again, but at the same time I can't help thinking she might be crying out to be 'fought for' and I would like to see them. Do I actively pursue contact in asking to visit again etc or just let the kids have my details, explaining how much I'd like to see them, and wait for them to come to me? I should point out that my ten year old is exceptionally grown up for her age and knows her own wishes thoroughly. Niether her mother nor the boyfriend I think have adversely swayed the kids away from me.
There is no question of going to court to force the situation, and there is no court order in place. I'm asking more from a moral and emotional viewpoint, than a legal one.
Thanks.

[888sally888]

hi Nox

Here is my opinion.

My daughter who is 18 hasnt spoken to her father for 3.5 years. Her father split up the mariage 8 years ago so they had some contact from her being 10 - 14. He then made her life so unhappy by notbothering and being abusive that she decided to break contact. She has REALLY suffered from the way he treated her and it will probably always affect her.

So, after my rambling I think that you shouldvisit as often as possible as well as text e mail and phone whatever reaction you get.

A year to a 10 year old is an age and no wonder you seem like a stranger to her. Your exes husband is NOT her FATHER - you are and you sound like you care. Dont give up on your children - I think you will really regret it. And god forbid if your exes marriage fails - they still have you as a constant and something solid in their lives.

Hope all this makes sense Sal x

[pink-kittens]

OK, your children are not old enough to know how they will feel in a few years time. They will resent you wholly if you sever contact at this age. You say yourself your youngest did not remember you - how did that make you feel? Be honest. Didn't it rip your heart out?

Please, I implore you, keep contact be it by phone call, letter or actual visits because your children will thank you in the end for your efforts. They may to actually say thank you, but you will know they appreciated the fact you did keep in touch.

We know today just how important contact is with both parents - even violent fathers are issued contact with their children in contact centres. Even those children who have been abused by their fathers are and can be given contact in such centres too.

You say 'it appears to be' your 10 yr olds choice. Maybe she is appearing as such because she thinks that is what you want? After all you went for 12 months without seeing them, so maybe she3 feels already that you want nothing to do with them? Would you not want to change that?

Like and trust the person who has taken over your role (although he will never really fill your shoes in their eyes) because until he does something that makes you not, he has care of your most precious belonging.

I would not go for custody myself if they are settled as you say, but I would certainly be looking at visiting more often than every 12 months. We are not far from Germany realistically.

And why is there no question of you going to court to get some kind of order in place? Is it because you may have to stick to it?

I think if I were in your situ I would move heaven and earth, literally, to see my children, regardless

[Eve]

Hey lovely :)

You could write to her, an initial letter explaining then send further letters with what you are doing, how you miss her etc...

Maybe have a word with your ex and see if she could help in that, when a letter /card/present from you is recieved that she gives your daughter a choice whether to have it or not.

If not then your ex could put it aside in a box so that, if she decides at some point she does want to see them, she can (or send two, one for her, one for a box).

I know your little one is only a baby but I'd keep the contact as she's not old enough to know and see how things go. You could also write her letters as well she can read when she's older.

Could you have the little one over with you and give the older one a chance to come if she wanted to so the option is always there?

Or could you go over and stay separately and have the baby with you with the option for your older one to join you if she wanted?

[pink-kittens]

Not sure its a good idea to have the little one for a visit he they don't remember him :(

[888sally888]

Thats good NOX cos all of us are advising the same thing - please try and keep the contact.

[ccfluff]

Hi, my father left my mother when i was only 2. He moved 2 streets away and never bothered about both myself and my brother. Dont give up on your children. If i were you I would contact your ex and ask her if it would be alright to keep all communication open with your children. Id write them letters, email and phone. The year you spent away from them has obviously caused a breakage in your relationship, it is quite possible that your daughter may feel you wont be around and that you may vanish again from her life. I dont think she didnt want you there, it might have been her way of asking you to prove youll be sticking around. Again, id write her a letter on a weekly basis, make sure its address to her directly, which paves the way for her to feel that 'this is a lettter from my dad', this will give her, over time, a sense of belonging. i would also email them, if you can, every night, just a quick how are you, hope you had a good day, night night. that sort of thing. in time your children may wish to visit you at your home. After a few weeks of letter writing, just casually drop it in that it would be nice to see them again, tell them that you like germany and would love to be shown around by them.
Its a difficult situation, but if you handle it carefully im sure youll get there. just dont give up on your kids

[obNOXious]

Thank you Sal, I was hoping some ladies with experience the 'other side of the fence' might reply.
That's my instinct tbh, to maintain contact and try to ride out my self created storm. I fully appreciate how much it must have hurt particularly my ten year old, for me to have just absented myself from her for a year, and as she's a self posessed and gutsy person I certainly didn't expect to be welcomed back with open arms, but I do feel that if I abide by her wishes and make myself scarce again , that she might feel abandoned all over again and long term that might be worse for her.
I think my ex's perspective is coloured by the fact that I wasn't perhaps the easiest man in the world to live with, but she did say that they were happy for me to see the kisd whenever I wished, as long as the kids were happy to see me.And thereby is the potential problem that I can see. I don't want to rock an already fragile boat, and it end up with my daughter telling them she doesn't want to see me and them preventing me in some way and leading to possible aggro.
I do care very much, I always tried to be a decent father, and that was why I removed my uglier side from them when my wife and I split up.

[pink-kittens]

Great reply Nox

You are improving yourself
By your own admittance you were 'ugly'. Let your 10 yr old see you have changed, the youngest one will follow in time

[888sally888]

NOX well done for sorting out your issues. Dont worry about the past and whats been with you ex.

You have a chance to make it up to your children now and this in turn will boost how you feel about yourself.

Its a win win situation - please keep us posted x

[sara3]

wow, what a toughie.

I do think that one day your 10 yr old may be thinking, "but I was only 10, and he was the adult..." no one wants to feel their parents aren't "there" for them. you have some lost time to make up for. your daughter may have felt abandoned, or be scared to trust you in case it happens again. I think it's really important to decide if you can keep that trust once you've gained it. work hard to regain your relationship with the kids. it's great that they're settled but you only get one dad. long-term, it's important for all of you. kids don't really understand adult issues, although maybe one day they will understand why you've done what you've done. for now it's important for them to know you're back on the scene, and ready to be a proper dad again.

I wish you luck. you obviously care heaps x

[obNOXious]

Thank you all very much and I'm glad there seems to be such an overwhelming concensus in the advice given.

Pink, the only reason I wouldn't go to court is nothing to do with me sticking to something, it's just that when my marriage ended, my ex and I decideed no courts, no aggro and no bad feelings,free access to the kids etc mainly for the sake of the kdis. In fairness to her she has kept her side of that thoroughly and I'd see it as a betrayal of our original agreement to go down a route that would in any way legally force her hand.

Jenna... hello lovely how are you?
My littlest one was involved in an accident, which is how actually I came to get back in touch rather sooner than I had planned as my ex tried to contact me when it happened and she doesn't remember me at all and is all clingy for her stepafther whenever I'm there so I think it'd be a long slow process to get her comfortable enough to stay overnight with me for a while at least.

fluff, yeah that's exactly whhat I'm worried about is that in the long tem the kids will feel simply that I didn't think they were bothering about and that it'll lead to even greater problems for them.

thank you all for the advice, it's given me a reassurance that my gut instinct is right on this.

[pink-kittens]

Without wishing to sound harsh I will say this: you sound as if you care now you have to prove it, not to us but to your children.
But you already know that - I wish you luck, really I do.
Just one letter a week will give your children the knowledge you did/do/and continue to care about them

[obNOXious]

Thanks sara, yeah the issue is her being ten and me being the adult who ultimately depsite my recent lack of common sense shoudl always look out for her long term welfare. She's not likely to see it that way at the moment (which is the way that we raised her to have her own very definate opinions and not be afraid to voice them), but I do think ultimately that it would be in everyone's best interests if constant contact of some sort was made.
I just reallly wanted some reassurance that I was not being selfish in wanting to invade what seems to be a very stable and pretty functional family that they seem to have created in my absence.

[jno]

I think you're right: keep contact with them. Be prepared for them to be distant and unresponsive; I imagine this will cause you pain, but you're the adult, you have to expect some pain in your life. Better that than have the kids feeling pain, now and later, because you seem to have just vanished.

I suppose in a worst-case scenario they'll never respond, never be grateful, if they live to be 100. That would be very painful indeed. And yet I still think you're doing the right thing. At the very least you're demonstrating to them what taking responsibility for other people means, and they'll be better for this whether they know it or not.

Good luck.

[obNOXious]

Thanks Jno and nice to see you again.
certainly you are right in that this is less about my pesonal wishes than it is about the long term wellbeing of the kids. i have no doubt that their mother is beyond capable in all regards, and have no fear that she would choose an unsuitable partner, or place them in any jeopardy whatsoever, but I do think that despite the fact that i'm sure it wuited her down to the ground when i wa absent, that as you say even if the kids never 'come round' it woud be best if I maintained an interest. I do think actually that my ten year old is fully aware of how much I care about her, and that her ability not to set herself up as anyone's victim is mostly the cause of her distance, and that hopefully once it can be proved to her that i'm back to stay as it were, that she might relent somewhat.

[Octavius]

I think you should maintain contact and visit as much as you are able, and write letters to the eldest and include some photo�s every now and again. Don�t forget Christmas and Birthdays as well.

The important thing I think is for you to �grin and bear� the rejection and potential isolation, but equally ensure that they grow up knowing you have not abandoned them and would love to have been part of their young lives and wish to be part of their adult lives. Maybe when they are older they will want to visit you, but in the meantime let them enjoy stability in their new life, with the knowledge that you will always be there for them. No matter how hurt and resentful your ex might be, she may come to respect that one day.

[Goodsoulette]

Fight to see your kids, Noxy. Be persistent about it, much better to have your children resent you for a few years because you are an interfering old goat than for them to hate you later down the line for never trying.

I really feel you, its an awful situation and must break your heart to here you children calling another man dad. Children are often ungrateful creatures at the best of times, they will only realise what you have done for them in years to come.

[abstract]

we've all done things we're ashamed of but not all of us get a chance to make it up and rectify so hang in there,times a great healer,at the moment your a stranger but eventually your kids will get to know and understand,leave now and your ex and her new ''man'' have won and you've lost the kids forever.........now ask yourself a question.......are you a coward or are you a fighter?..................thats what i thought,so put your gloves on,jump back into the ring and do whats right champ! take it slowly but surely and good luck!

[silly~lilly]

Please try and maintain some form of contact obNOXious. I think its important, let them see you are there, always, even if they arent ready to see you just yet .

Children are so adaptable and forgiving whilst still young, dont walk away forever, i think it would be the wrong thing to do for all concerned, let them come round in their own time, im sure they will.
I wish you all my very best in sorting out your relationship with your children. x

[China Doll]

Hi Nox,

When my father and mother divorced I was 12/13 years old and incredibly tough as I am (ahem), I remember thinking that it didn't really effect me. In all fairness there was some other ridiculously complicated things happening at the time so admittedly I didn't have a lot of time to dwell on the divorce.

Anyway, my father left then and I didn't see him again until I was about 16 I guess... His choice (if you can call it that), not mine... When he came back in to our lives he still had many issues to deal with and he was unreliable and unpredictable. There's quite an age gap between my younger sisters and myself so you can imagine how much this hurt them (who didn't remember their father so well as I did) and indeed myself, not just because effectively I didn't have a father anymore but also because I could see my sisters suffering. He vanished on us again and this time he emerged when I was 18.