ChatterBank2 mins ago
Irrelevance Of A Meaningful Existence Due To Predicted Eventuality Of The Universe - Or Not?
46 Answers
Hi ABers,
Not been on for a while, been off reading and expanding my knowledge about my deepest troubles. And I return with a stonker for you, which I hope even the most hardened experimental science buffs will have a crack at, despite it's proximity to being a philosophical question. So... lengthy title that demands further explanation.
I'm an incredibly deep thinker and I use my cognitive abilities to tackle The question... The meaning life, the universe and everything (as Douglas put it.) I've thus exposed my mind to the unimaginable durations of time yet to come and the fate of humanity in it's wake.
IF we assume mankind never manages to colonise any other planetary body outside our own solar system, then come 5 billions years or so, our star will exhaust it's supply of nuclear fuel and enter it's death phases, swallowing up Earth along the way.
Otherwise, IF we assume mankind has managed to colonise and breed successful generations on a world around another star in our galaxy, therefore avoiding the destruction of Earth, and can repeat this process from star to star, mankind will inevitably suffer the ultimate fate of the rest of the matter in our galaxy and fall victim to the gravity of the super massive black hole in it's centre.
Further more, IF we assume humans have sufficient research and technology to allow them to travel to another galaxy and repeat this process, we can prolong mankind's existence exponentially and conclude they might thrive until the end of the last shining star, hundreds of billions of years from now...
However... scientist are grouped (mainly) in to two camps for the theory of how the universe evolves and ends. One argument is for the 'big crunch', where the Universe stops expanding and under the force of gravity retracts, becoming smaller and smaller until it reaches it's starting point. A singularity. (This theory necessarily condemns Humanity to a squashed end and erasure from existence.) The other camp argues the universe will keep expanding, ever after increasing the distances between the galaxies, making each galaxy an island of matter in the void. Once all the hydrogen is burned up by star formation and death, heavier elements ejected by super nova will eventually be swallowed up by the galactic black hole which (it is believed) the only way it will lose mass and dissipate is by slowly radiating energy , x-rays and such like.
VERY long winded I do apologise but here's my point... If the fate of the universe is either of those two theorised conclusions, man kind will be destroyed, even if the survive to see the last sun bun out. All of human history gone, genetic information from parent to child gone, all of mankind's great research and achievements, inventions and constructions will be gone...
If you, as I have, expose your mind to the vast time frame involved and contemplate our believed fate of our species, doesn't it strike you as pointless to do anything useful with life? Might not it be more logical to be minimal instead of maximum? Do you believe your life will have ANY meaning of relevance to a universe that's seen humanity wiped from it's space?
If I were to be a great orator and progressive politician or I was a Heroin addict living on the streets, once human memory of me or written record of me is lost/deleted/corrupted or damaged beyond salvation, my life and it's achievements would amount to ZERO, especially when mankind ceases to exist and all matter in the universe is either squashed or swallowed up and evaporated into pure energy....
Very sorry for long question, if you've laboured your way through that block of words, might I encourage you to add your own thought below?
IHI
Not been on for a while, been off reading and expanding my knowledge about my deepest troubles. And I return with a stonker for you, which I hope even the most hardened experimental science buffs will have a crack at, despite it's proximity to being a philosophical question. So... lengthy title that demands further explanation.
I'm an incredibly deep thinker and I use my cognitive abilities to tackle The question... The meaning life, the universe and everything (as Douglas put it.) I've thus exposed my mind to the unimaginable durations of time yet to come and the fate of humanity in it's wake.
IF we assume mankind never manages to colonise any other planetary body outside our own solar system, then come 5 billions years or so, our star will exhaust it's supply of nuclear fuel and enter it's death phases, swallowing up Earth along the way.
Otherwise, IF we assume mankind has managed to colonise and breed successful generations on a world around another star in our galaxy, therefore avoiding the destruction of Earth, and can repeat this process from star to star, mankind will inevitably suffer the ultimate fate of the rest of the matter in our galaxy and fall victim to the gravity of the super massive black hole in it's centre.
Further more, IF we assume humans have sufficient research and technology to allow them to travel to another galaxy and repeat this process, we can prolong mankind's existence exponentially and conclude they might thrive until the end of the last shining star, hundreds of billions of years from now...
However... scientist are grouped (mainly) in to two camps for the theory of how the universe evolves and ends. One argument is for the 'big crunch', where the Universe stops expanding and under the force of gravity retracts, becoming smaller and smaller until it reaches it's starting point. A singularity. (This theory necessarily condemns Humanity to a squashed end and erasure from existence.) The other camp argues the universe will keep expanding, ever after increasing the distances between the galaxies, making each galaxy an island of matter in the void. Once all the hydrogen is burned up by star formation and death, heavier elements ejected by super nova will eventually be swallowed up by the galactic black hole which (it is believed) the only way it will lose mass and dissipate is by slowly radiating energy , x-rays and such like.
VERY long winded I do apologise but here's my point... If the fate of the universe is either of those two theorised conclusions, man kind will be destroyed, even if the survive to see the last sun bun out. All of human history gone, genetic information from parent to child gone, all of mankind's great research and achievements, inventions and constructions will be gone...
If you, as I have, expose your mind to the vast time frame involved and contemplate our believed fate of our species, doesn't it strike you as pointless to do anything useful with life? Might not it be more logical to be minimal instead of maximum? Do you believe your life will have ANY meaning of relevance to a universe that's seen humanity wiped from it's space?
If I were to be a great orator and progressive politician or I was a Heroin addict living on the streets, once human memory of me or written record of me is lost/deleted/corrupted or damaged beyond salvation, my life and it's achievements would amount to ZERO, especially when mankind ceases to exist and all matter in the universe is either squashed or swallowed up and evaporated into pure energy....
Very sorry for long question, if you've laboured your way through that block of words, might I encourage you to add your own thought below?
IHI
Answers
I don't see that this question should be confined to life alone. There seems to be little point to a lifeless universe either. Little point in anything. I guess with intelligent life comes the ability to conceive of something outside of the physical realm, a non-
13:51 Mon 15th Apr 2013
Again so so sorry for that lengthy question... I want to further my take on the situation though.
I believe (like some others) that our universe was born of black hole in another universe. I believe the matter it swallows up is reduced to an energy state (that matches post big bang conditions) and at some critical point expells that energy into a different dimension that allows a new universe to form...
... If this is the case then does the ideals in 'information theory' (which is that information can never be destroyed) protect the complex information associated with matter, when it falls into the black hole? Take a human being as example. Despite the complexity of our body and brains, would a black hole erase the DNA data or destroy our 'example's' last thoughts before going beyond the event horizon? If the phrase 'information cannot be destroyed' is absolute and my theory of black hole parenting offspring universes is correct, does the possibility occur that, what ever we do before the black hole consumes us, the information associated will still be intact in the black hole and therefore might be said to influence the seeding of the offspring universe? Restoring purpose to our lives?
I've got thick skin and I don't mind you telling me I'm nuts ABer's because I want you to be honest. But if you have any constructive thoughts or counter arguments, please post.
IHI
I believe (like some others) that our universe was born of black hole in another universe. I believe the matter it swallows up is reduced to an energy state (that matches post big bang conditions) and at some critical point expells that energy into a different dimension that allows a new universe to form...
... If this is the case then does the ideals in 'information theory' (which is that information can never be destroyed) protect the complex information associated with matter, when it falls into the black hole? Take a human being as example. Despite the complexity of our body and brains, would a black hole erase the DNA data or destroy our 'example's' last thoughts before going beyond the event horizon? If the phrase 'information cannot be destroyed' is absolute and my theory of black hole parenting offspring universes is correct, does the possibility occur that, what ever we do before the black hole consumes us, the information associated will still be intact in the black hole and therefore might be said to influence the seeding of the offspring universe? Restoring purpose to our lives?
I've got thick skin and I don't mind you telling me I'm nuts ABer's because I want you to be honest. But if you have any constructive thoughts or counter arguments, please post.
IHI
Not really sure why this is such a toughy for you - it's pretty self explanatory really - its all a bit 'Meaning of life 101', isn't it?
It also does not require all the copy and pasted stuff about the ins an out of the end of the universe, in order for you to ask your question - we get the one day the universe will end, and you risk people just giving up if you insist on long winded waffle.
You also answer your own questions in your post - but you know that already don't you...?
It also does not require all the copy and pasted stuff about the ins an out of the end of the universe, in order for you to ask your question - we get the one day the universe will end, and you risk people just giving up if you insist on long winded waffle.
You also answer your own questions in your post - but you know that already don't you...?
Yeah I know joko I do answer myself sometimes, but I'll have you know, I hand typed all that waffle of end of universe stuff...
AB isn't really the right outlet for my problems with existence but I thought I'd pitch this one to you. Never read meaning of life 101, maybe i should before troubling you all with it. It's the defining purpose of my life though... to find resolution in an ultimately meaningless existence... I'm troubled :'(
Thanks for reading the essay i posted lol
AB isn't really the right outlet for my problems with existence but I thought I'd pitch this one to you. Never read meaning of life 101, maybe i should before troubling you all with it. It's the defining purpose of my life though... to find resolution in an ultimately meaningless existence... I'm troubled :'(
Thanks for reading the essay i posted lol
by 101 - i meant the beginners book... your questions, despite being wordy, are actually quite basic 'starter questions'.
Regarding your troubles, sadly you will not find resolution down the path you are heading.
We are just the inhabitants of a planet, and when the universe ends its likely we will have been extinct for millenia.
Our individual lives have no significance to the universe as a whole - not even the greatest of humans will matter in 300 million years.
In regards to whether to live a useful life - do what you want - if you want to do interesting important stuff then do, if not, don't.
If you don't it will only matter for the time you are here, and if you do something that enhances all our time here, and changes our future, then that's great - it will benefit you and us in the short term, or the long term, and you will probably be noted in the history books - but once we're gone, so will it be.
dont waste your time - and life - worrying about this stuff.
humans do rather like to see themselves as the centre of the universe and its hard for some to accept that to the universe we are nothing more than germs on a pimple.
A series you might like is called 'the future is wild' - it won't answer your questions, (it has no real answer) but its an interesting view of the future - basically a team of scientists etc have come together to work out what evolution is likely to come up with millions of years in the future, using examples of evolution that have already occurred. Humans are long gone.
Regarding your troubles, sadly you will not find resolution down the path you are heading.
We are just the inhabitants of a planet, and when the universe ends its likely we will have been extinct for millenia.
Our individual lives have no significance to the universe as a whole - not even the greatest of humans will matter in 300 million years.
In regards to whether to live a useful life - do what you want - if you want to do interesting important stuff then do, if not, don't.
If you don't it will only matter for the time you are here, and if you do something that enhances all our time here, and changes our future, then that's great - it will benefit you and us in the short term, or the long term, and you will probably be noted in the history books - but once we're gone, so will it be.
dont waste your time - and life - worrying about this stuff.
humans do rather like to see themselves as the centre of the universe and its hard for some to accept that to the universe we are nothing more than germs on a pimple.
A series you might like is called 'the future is wild' - it won't answer your questions, (it has no real answer) but its an interesting view of the future - basically a team of scientists etc have come together to work out what evolution is likely to come up with millions of years in the future, using examples of evolution that have already occurred. Humans are long gone.
I found it interesting enough.
But too much dwelling on such questions might lead to nihilism & depression, I think.
Here's a little story you might like.
Years ago I walked into the canteen on site where they were talking about birds & fighting.
"Can't you blokes talk about something else" says I.
"Like what"
"I dunno, the infinity of time & the cosmos"
"What's that"
"Well,for instance, if you were in a rocket travelling at a million miles an hour for a million years you wouldn't have got to the end of the cosmos. Can't explain that,can you?
This little Irish bloke sat in the corner says "Sure that's easy, you'd be going around in circles."
But too much dwelling on such questions might lead to nihilism & depression, I think.
Here's a little story you might like.
Years ago I walked into the canteen on site where they were talking about birds & fighting.
"Can't you blokes talk about something else" says I.
"Like what"
"I dunno, the infinity of time & the cosmos"
"What's that"
"Well,for instance, if you were in a rocket travelling at a million miles an hour for a million years you wouldn't have got to the end of the cosmos. Can't explain that,can you?
This little Irish bloke sat in the corner says "Sure that's easy, you'd be going around in circles."
It's philosophical so posted in the science forum ?
First off you are assuming there is an inevitable end which may not be the case. Who knows what recycling the universe manages ? Or what we may eventually find to create life friendly environments from the dilute energy what has to exist since it can't be destroyed. Make our own stars maybe ?
But for now let's ignore the suggested reasons why there may be an end and assume that there will be to start with.
In which case the issue for life as a whole is not so very different to the issue each individual has already. Why exist if there comes an end when, whatever you went through, it makes 'no odds' any more ? (Mind you we are assuming time flows here rather than it always being there static, it's passage being an illusion.)
Yes it does seem pointless, it is a question I consider fairly often, and suspect I'm not the only one. But I think the only way to square that is to place importance on the present moment. The journey being worthwhile in itself rather than placing importance on any destination you reach, or even what good you did along the way.
But I state again this isn't really a science question, it's probably misplaced in here.
First off you are assuming there is an inevitable end which may not be the case. Who knows what recycling the universe manages ? Or what we may eventually find to create life friendly environments from the dilute energy what has to exist since it can't be destroyed. Make our own stars maybe ?
But for now let's ignore the suggested reasons why there may be an end and assume that there will be to start with.
In which case the issue for life as a whole is not so very different to the issue each individual has already. Why exist if there comes an end when, whatever you went through, it makes 'no odds' any more ? (Mind you we are assuming time flows here rather than it always being there static, it's passage being an illusion.)
Yes it does seem pointless, it is a question I consider fairly often, and suspect I'm not the only one. But I think the only way to square that is to place importance on the present moment. The journey being worthwhile in itself rather than placing importance on any destination you reach, or even what good you did along the way.
But I state again this isn't really a science question, it's probably misplaced in here.
I think you're missing quite an important point
Humanity has existed for only a couple of hundred thousand years
Apes for about 30 Million years
Mammals 260 Million
And you're thinking about humans in billions of years?
I don't know what sort of eyes will look up at a sun as a red giant but they won't be anything you or I would recognise as human!
But whatever the fate of humanity it isn't infinite - I suggest you turn your intellect to what you mean by the term meaning
What would an existance with meaning look like - then you may be closer to an answer
Humanity has existed for only a couple of hundred thousand years
Apes for about 30 Million years
Mammals 260 Million
And you're thinking about humans in billions of years?
I don't know what sort of eyes will look up at a sun as a red giant but they won't be anything you or I would recognise as human!
But whatever the fate of humanity it isn't infinite - I suggest you turn your intellect to what you mean by the term meaning
What would an existance with meaning look like - then you may be closer to an answer
I take on faith the scientists claim information can not be destroyed. But I feel it must reach a state where it can no longer be extracted in its previous form any more. I can not see how a state, that can be reached by more than one path, can return the precise way it came to be.
But now we are into the subject of the nature of time and whether the past is a single past anyway or all of the multitude of possible ones no longer collapsed into a single right one. IMO that is a much more exotic subject.
But now we are into the subject of the nature of time and whether the past is a single past anyway or all of the multitude of possible ones no longer collapsed into a single right one. IMO that is a much more exotic subject.
@ IHI Sorry, but some of the sentences in your OP did come across as rather grandiose and egotistical - and pretentious, to be honest..
Like this one
"I'm an incredibly deep thinker and I use my cognitive abilities to tackle The question... The meaning life, the universe and everything (as Douglas put it.) I've thus exposed my mind to the unimaginable durations of time yet to come and the fate of humanity in it's wake."
I mean, really? You do not think that sounds egotistical? And, again, to be frank these "dilemnas " you ponder are not as grand and deep as you make them out to be - again, to be honest, they are somewhat sophomoric.
And then this one;
"If you, as I have, expose your mind to the vast time frame involved and contemplate our believed fate of our species, doesn't it strike you as pointless to do anything useful with life? "
I mean come on, really? Do you imagine no one else has ever thought about this kind of thing? That no other philosopher or scientist or heck, even a 6th former after their first experience of pot has not thought about this kind of thing?
They are interesting questions, sure, but not anywhere near as portentous as your post makes them out to be. What meaning your life has is what you make of your life now - How you interact with the world around you, not what might happen in 5 billion or 100 billion years from now.
If you are defining your existence by existential questions about what might or might not happen in some unknowable, distant future then you are not taking full advantage of life right now, IMO...
Like this one
"I'm an incredibly deep thinker and I use my cognitive abilities to tackle The question... The meaning life, the universe and everything (as Douglas put it.) I've thus exposed my mind to the unimaginable durations of time yet to come and the fate of humanity in it's wake."
I mean, really? You do not think that sounds egotistical? And, again, to be frank these "dilemnas " you ponder are not as grand and deep as you make them out to be - again, to be honest, they are somewhat sophomoric.
And then this one;
"If you, as I have, expose your mind to the vast time frame involved and contemplate our believed fate of our species, doesn't it strike you as pointless to do anything useful with life? "
I mean come on, really? Do you imagine no one else has ever thought about this kind of thing? That no other philosopher or scientist or heck, even a 6th former after their first experience of pot has not thought about this kind of thing?
They are interesting questions, sure, but not anywhere near as portentous as your post makes them out to be. What meaning your life has is what you make of your life now - How you interact with the world around you, not what might happen in 5 billion or 100 billion years from now.
If you are defining your existence by existential questions about what might or might not happen in some unknowable, distant future then you are not taking full advantage of life right now, IMO...
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