News0 min ago
penny for the Guy
I am horrified !
I met a five year old neighbour yesterday - he was really exited full of his days learning and showing me his poppy - I asked him what it was he said it was a flower that his teacher gave him - I asked him why and he said he didn't know - so I said I have a question for you - why does guy want a penny? - I asked him to ask his teacher the next day - he has just given me his reply - he was so excited! he said Miss said it's so that the children can buy sweets !!!!!! well rubbish teaching aside to which I suggested to his mother she should go and challenge the school. Can anyone tell me why does he guy want a penny?
I met a five year old neighbour yesterday - he was really exited full of his days learning and showing me his poppy - I asked him what it was he said it was a flower that his teacher gave him - I asked him why and he said he didn't know - so I said I have a question for you - why does guy want a penny? - I asked him to ask his teacher the next day - he has just given me his reply - he was so excited! he said Miss said it's so that the children can buy sweets !!!!!! well rubbish teaching aside to which I suggested to his mother she should go and challenge the school. Can anyone tell me why does he guy want a penny?
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Here in the U.S., it's apparent that the celebration of Halloween is current with Guy Fawkes Day in England. Here, the children mooching free candy say "Trick or treat!" and in that context one source links the two thusly:
"...The practice of "souling" - going from door to door on or about All Souls Day (Halloween) to solicit gifts of food in return for prayers for the dead - evolved from a pagan ritual that was practiced all over Europe, possibly as early as the 10th century. As a Christian tradition it goes back to at least the 14th century, when it is mentioned by Chaucer. It is still commonplace in many Catholic countries, notably Ireland, where soul-cakes are left out for the departed. The first reference to the practice under that name in England is John Brand's Popular Antiquities of Great Britain, 1779:
"On All Saints Day, the poor people go from parish to parish a Souling, as they call it."
The tradition has altered so that it is now children, usually dressed in disguise, who go about asking for gifts around the beginning of November. Some examples of this are from:
England, where we have requests for 'a penny for the guy'. This derives from the bonfire celebrations that began to celebrate the thwarting of the Gunpowder Plot in 1605. Guy Fawkes was the explosives specialist of the plot. He was scheduled to be hanged, drawn and quartered, but escaped that fate by prematurely hanging himself by jumping from the scaffold with the noose around his neck. He is now symbolically re-executed each year on 5th November (Bonfire Night), when effigies of him, called guys, are burned on bonfires all over England. The 'pennies' that children collect are traditionally spent on fireworks. This had a secular and political rather than religious or supernatural motivation, but it clearly inherited much from souling.
(Contd.)
"...The practice of "souling" - going from door to door on or about All Souls Day (Halloween) to solicit gifts of food in return for prayers for the dead - evolved from a pagan ritual that was practiced all over Europe, possibly as early as the 10th century. As a Christian tradition it goes back to at least the 14th century, when it is mentioned by Chaucer. It is still commonplace in many Catholic countries, notably Ireland, where soul-cakes are left out for the departed. The first reference to the practice under that name in England is John Brand's Popular Antiquities of Great Britain, 1779:
"On All Saints Day, the poor people go from parish to parish a Souling, as they call it."
The tradition has altered so that it is now children, usually dressed in disguise, who go about asking for gifts around the beginning of November. Some examples of this are from:
England, where we have requests for 'a penny for the guy'. This derives from the bonfire celebrations that began to celebrate the thwarting of the Gunpowder Plot in 1605. Guy Fawkes was the explosives specialist of the plot. He was scheduled to be hanged, drawn and quartered, but escaped that fate by prematurely hanging himself by jumping from the scaffold with the noose around his neck. He is now symbolically re-executed each year on 5th November (Bonfire Night), when effigies of him, called guys, are burned on bonfires all over England. The 'pennies' that children collect are traditionally spent on fireworks. This had a secular and political rather than religious or supernatural motivation, but it clearly inherited much from souling.
(Contd.)
(Contd.)
The USA, where the tradition is trick or treating. This 20th century tradition has many of the features of the earlier rituals, a knowledge of which were of course brought to the USA by immigrants from Europe.
Scotland, where it is called guising. This is a clear predecessor of trick or treat. The main difference between the two was that the children performed small entertainments before being given gifts - poems, jokes etc. This is now merging into trick or treating, with sweets being expected without the party piece.
The earliest known citation of trick or treat in print is from an item in the Oregon newspaper The Oregon Journal, 1st November 1934, headed 'Halloween Pranks Keep Police on Hop':"
(Souce: The Phrase Finder )
"Other young goblins and ghosts, employing modern shakedown methods, successfully worked the 'trick or treat' system in all parts of the city."
The USA, where the tradition is trick or treating. This 20th century tradition has many of the features of the earlier rituals, a knowledge of which were of course brought to the USA by immigrants from Europe.
Scotland, where it is called guising. This is a clear predecessor of trick or treat. The main difference between the two was that the children performed small entertainments before being given gifts - poems, jokes etc. This is now merging into trick or treating, with sweets being expected without the party piece.
The earliest known citation of trick or treat in print is from an item in the Oregon newspaper The Oregon Journal, 1st November 1934, headed 'Halloween Pranks Keep Police on Hop':"
(Souce: The Phrase Finder )
"Other young goblins and ghosts, employing modern shakedown methods, successfully worked the 'trick or treat' system in all parts of the city."
Clanad the traditional question asked by the children is 'Penny for the guy ?' What you give is supposed to be an appreciation of the work that has gone into making the guy which the children have made and which they are displaying. The 'guy' is the effigy which they will later burn on their bonfire. The word 'guy' is from Guy Fawkes (.The North American use of guy for a man may possibly come from this, too; here by the C19 it was a slang word for any scruffy bloke)
They traditionally used the money to buy fireworks, though now there are age restrictions on sale.
Soul cakes and souling have nothing to do with it. Where souling was practised it was a separate matter for a separate festival . Hallowe'en is an ancient celebration the practice of which (witch?) had died out in England though it lived on longer in Scotland. It has had something of a revival, driven by commerce and 'imported' from the US. However, in this area (south of Cambridge) and this village there's been no sign of it.
They traditionally used the money to buy fireworks, though now there are age restrictions on sale.
Soul cakes and souling have nothing to do with it. Where souling was practised it was a separate matter for a separate festival . Hallowe'en is an ancient celebration the practice of which (witch?) had died out in England though it lived on longer in Scotland. It has had something of a revival, driven by commerce and 'imported' from the US. However, in this area (south of Cambridge) and this village there's been no sign of it.
I can well recall kids begging pennies for the 'guy' they had made even in the 1970s, for example on Market Street in central Manchester. We always made our own guy -weren't allowed to scrounge pennies - but burned him to cinders in the back garden on a bonfire.
There are other old traditions of kids' seasonal games that involved inviting contributions - carol singing ie three assorted louts mumbling 'Silent Night' tunelessly with one hand out for the cash....'a pin to see the peepshow' was made into the title of a novel....
Burning effigies was and is still used for political purposes - I believe contributors from Northern Ireland my have recent views on this - but burning *** Fawkes' effigy was actively encouraged to teach the populace to distrust catholics and not plot against the king.
In the late 50s and 60s Salford, our catholic priest would tour schools in October/ November to preach against making a guy, as apparently the poor bloke was framed and it still represented anti-catholicism. We always agreed then went straight out and did it.
It isn't surprising that a small kid now and even a teacher in her 20s has no context for 'penny for the guy' as we don't encourage the heady mixture of small children, asking starngers for money, combustible materials and matches any more.
I only noticed all the Halloween tat coming in, with trick or treating, in the 1980s - celebrating witchery in any way at all was, for us, yet another Sin to be Avoided. But seriously, as a child we didn't mark halloween at all - althoug All Souls Day (Toussaint in French) was 'compulsory church or go to hell and burn day.'
There are other old traditions of kids' seasonal games that involved inviting contributions - carol singing ie three assorted louts mumbling 'Silent Night' tunelessly with one hand out for the cash....'a pin to see the peepshow' was made into the title of a novel....
Burning effigies was and is still used for political purposes - I believe contributors from Northern Ireland my have recent views on this - but burning *** Fawkes' effigy was actively encouraged to teach the populace to distrust catholics and not plot against the king.
In the late 50s and 60s Salford, our catholic priest would tour schools in October/ November to preach against making a guy, as apparently the poor bloke was framed and it still represented anti-catholicism. We always agreed then went straight out and did it.
It isn't surprising that a small kid now and even a teacher in her 20s has no context for 'penny for the guy' as we don't encourage the heady mixture of small children, asking starngers for money, combustible materials and matches any more.
I only noticed all the Halloween tat coming in, with trick or treating, in the 1980s - celebrating witchery in any way at all was, for us, yet another Sin to be Avoided. But seriously, as a child we didn't mark halloween at all - althoug All Souls Day (Toussaint in French) was 'compulsory church or go to hell and burn day.'
Guy Fawkes, Guy
Hit him in the eye,
Hang him from the lamp-post
And leave him there to die.
Umbrella down the cellar,
There I saw a naked fella
Burn his body, save his soul,
There I saw a lump of coal;
If a lump of coal won't do,
Please give me a half a penny.
as said in the 1st answer, it was begging to buy fireworks
Hit him in the eye,
Hang him from the lamp-post
And leave him there to die.
Umbrella down the cellar,
There I saw a naked fella
Burn his body, save his soul,
There I saw a lump of coal;
If a lump of coal won't do,
Please give me a half a penny.
as said in the 1st answer, it was begging to buy fireworks
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