ChatterBank2 mins ago
Are Ian Tomlinson's Family Just After Money?
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Despite the cynical tone of my question, it does bear some consideration given the fact that by all accounts the tragic Mr Tomlinson not only lived by himself but was not in touch with any family members prior to his death.
Since when of course quite a few of his estranged family members suddenly materialised demanding justice for Mr Tomlinson. We've now had loads of public money spent trying to get to the bottom of this tragic incident, including 3 post mortems, an Independent Police Complaint Commission enquiry culminating in a Crown Court trial of now ex PC Simon Harwood (acquitted of manslaughter), and of course yesterday's dismissal of him by the Met Police.
Mr Tomlinson's relatives are still dissatisfied and have referred to the process as 'a whitewash', 'diabolical', 'showboating', and 'no justice'.
And of course the ubiquitous solicitors, the only real winners in all of this, are still stoking the fires, declaring that the family had been 'cheated of an opportunity', and 'the family want a judgement in the civil court".
Hasn't enough of the public purse been used already? Sounds to me like the just want money. Anyone care to dispute that?
Despite the cynical tone of my question, it does bear some consideration given the fact that by all accounts the tragic Mr Tomlinson not only lived by himself but was not in touch with any family members prior to his death.
Since when of course quite a few of his estranged family members suddenly materialised demanding justice for Mr Tomlinson. We've now had loads of public money spent trying to get to the bottom of this tragic incident, including 3 post mortems, an Independent Police Complaint Commission enquiry culminating in a Crown Court trial of now ex PC Simon Harwood (acquitted of manslaughter), and of course yesterday's dismissal of him by the Met Police.
Mr Tomlinson's relatives are still dissatisfied and have referred to the process as 'a whitewash', 'diabolical', 'showboating', and 'no justice'.
And of course the ubiquitous solicitors, the only real winners in all of this, are still stoking the fires, declaring that the family had been 'cheated of an opportunity', and 'the family want a judgement in the civil court".
Hasn't enough of the public purse been used already? Sounds to me like the just want money. Anyone care to dispute that?
Answers
Yes I do believe you could be right Kero. It has been said that his family did not want anything to do with him when he was alive, but have now appeared on the scene with '£' signs in their eyes.
The police have a very difficult job to carry out and like our soldiers they are hampered by political correctness, who knows what happened that day, what prior trouble...
The police have a very difficult job to carry out and like our soldiers they are hampered by political correctness, who knows what happened that day, what prior trouble...
11:43 Tue 18th Sep 2012
@Kerosene
Your speculations about the strength of feeling between family members is just that - your speculation, together with the follow up "they just want money" is cynical and vicious speculation at that.
If the family perceive there to be a miscarriage of justice ( as well they might, given the initial unlawful killing verdict, followed up by the not guilty verdict on Harwood, and finally his sacking for gross neglicence) they are well within their rights to seek redress in the courts.
As it stands, Harwood has escaped jail time and gets to keep his pension. The Met have washed their hands of it, sacking Harwood for gross neglicence but refusing to acknowledge their appallingly poor judgement in hiring this thug in the first place - And much of this confusion because of an incompetent pathologist who threw away much of the evidence. No one takes the blame, and a man is dead.
Yes, I would dispute your OP. You have said in another thread you felt Harwood should have been found guilty of manslaughter. Were you in their shoes, I am pretty sure you would want someone to take the blame....
Your speculations about the strength of feeling between family members is just that - your speculation, together with the follow up "they just want money" is cynical and vicious speculation at that.
If the family perceive there to be a miscarriage of justice ( as well they might, given the initial unlawful killing verdict, followed up by the not guilty verdict on Harwood, and finally his sacking for gross neglicence) they are well within their rights to seek redress in the courts.
As it stands, Harwood has escaped jail time and gets to keep his pension. The Met have washed their hands of it, sacking Harwood for gross neglicence but refusing to acknowledge their appallingly poor judgement in hiring this thug in the first place - And much of this confusion because of an incompetent pathologist who threw away much of the evidence. No one takes the blame, and a man is dead.
Yes, I would dispute your OP. You have said in another thread you felt Harwood should have been found guilty of manslaughter. Were you in their shoes, I am pretty sure you would want someone to take the blame....
LazyGun,
Your post is filled with emotion. Yes, you knew fine well that I thought Harwood ought to have been convicted of manslaughter - but the fact that he wasn't means that he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers (No, I don't mean fellow Police Officers). So I'm certainly not taking his side, but you trying to put words in my mouth like "..you would want someone to take the blame" sums up your emotions. Not everyone seeks to 'blame' others, not everyone is hell bent on vigilante vengeance. Some of us actually abide by the rule of law in this country, as do I.
Let me give you an even more horrific death than that of Mr Tomlinson: You may not feel that my example's to your taste following Harwood's acquittal etc, but are you old enough to remember the brutal murder in 1985 of PC Keith Blakelock when he was all but decapitated by a mob braying for blood at Broadwater Farm in London? His murderers used machetes to try and hack his head off.
I haven't seen his family howling for 'justice' these past 27 years? It is still unresolved, the difference being that Mr Tomlinson's death, regrettable and tragic though it was, has rather been turned into some kind of 'cause celebre' as witnessed by the many, many anti Police comments in relation to it over the past three and a half years.
What does that say about the general perception which many of you happen to hold against our boys / and girls, in blue? I refer also to some of the hysterical remarks last week about the Hillsborough 'result'.
Your post is filled with emotion. Yes, you knew fine well that I thought Harwood ought to have been convicted of manslaughter - but the fact that he wasn't means that he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers (No, I don't mean fellow Police Officers). So I'm certainly not taking his side, but you trying to put words in my mouth like "..you would want someone to take the blame" sums up your emotions. Not everyone seeks to 'blame' others, not everyone is hell bent on vigilante vengeance. Some of us actually abide by the rule of law in this country, as do I.
Let me give you an even more horrific death than that of Mr Tomlinson: You may not feel that my example's to your taste following Harwood's acquittal etc, but are you old enough to remember the brutal murder in 1985 of PC Keith Blakelock when he was all but decapitated by a mob braying for blood at Broadwater Farm in London? His murderers used machetes to try and hack his head off.
I haven't seen his family howling for 'justice' these past 27 years? It is still unresolved, the difference being that Mr Tomlinson's death, regrettable and tragic though it was, has rather been turned into some kind of 'cause celebre' as witnessed by the many, many anti Police comments in relation to it over the past three and a half years.
What does that say about the general perception which many of you happen to hold against our boys / and girls, in blue? I refer also to some of the hysterical remarks last week about the Hillsborough 'result'.
Zeuhl,
'specific officers' ? Were that only true. Have a look back, for example, to the Hillsborough threads from last week - to which you contributed - and see how many of the 'cop bashers' mentioned 'specific officers'?
There have been many other such comments by certain AB posters over the years. Check up if you doubt me? I have never stuck up for the Police when they have been shown to be 'banged to rights', but the law cannot be expected to either favour them - which it doesn't - or disadvantage them - which it doesn't - as opposed to anyone else, should it?
As I've already said, however, there are undoubtedly some AB posters who are 'anti Police' just for the hell of it - fact.
'specific officers' ? Were that only true. Have a look back, for example, to the Hillsborough threads from last week - to which you contributed - and see how many of the 'cop bashers' mentioned 'specific officers'?
There have been many other such comments by certain AB posters over the years. Check up if you doubt me? I have never stuck up for the Police when they have been shown to be 'banged to rights', but the law cannot be expected to either favour them - which it doesn't - or disadvantage them - which it doesn't - as opposed to anyone else, should it?
As I've already said, however, there are undoubtedly some AB posters who are 'anti Police' just for the hell of it - fact.
Yes I do believe you could be right Kero. It has been said that his family did not want anything to do with him when he was alive, but have now appeared on the scene with '£' signs in their eyes.
The police have a very difficult job to carry out and like our soldiers they are hampered by political correctness, who knows what happened that day, what prior trouble he had been causing that made PC Harwood take the action he did, there is only the small video clip showing the end result, how very convenient don't you think?
Enough to say that he stood trial for manslaughter and was cleared, but now the police authorities wanting to be seen doing something have sacked him, and yes he should receive his pension, he has paid into it.
The police have a very difficult job to carry out and like our soldiers they are hampered by political correctness, who knows what happened that day, what prior trouble he had been causing that made PC Harwood take the action he did, there is only the small video clip showing the end result, how very convenient don't you think?
Enough to say that he stood trial for manslaughter and was cleared, but now the police authorities wanting to be seen doing something have sacked him, and yes he should receive his pension, he has paid into it.
I'm sure PC Harwood didn't expect or intend Tomlinson to die either.
He simply wanted to hurt, humble and humiliate him for reasons best known to himself but probably as a release for tensions and frustrations he felt at the time.
It appears he had a track record of this sort of behaviour, so let's hope that following his dismissal he is never again put in a similar position of authority and responsibility.
He simply wanted to hurt, humble and humiliate him for reasons best known to himself but probably as a release for tensions and frustrations he felt at the time.
It appears he had a track record of this sort of behaviour, so let's hope that following his dismissal he is never again put in a similar position of authority and responsibility.
-- answer removed --
<<who knows what happened that day, what prior trouble he had been causing that made PC Harwood take the action he did>>
If you bothered with some facts Old Git you'd know that at no time has PC Harwood used accusations of 'trouble causing' against Mr Tomlinsonas part of his defence.
I think it is disgusting to liken our soldiers with someone who strikes a defenceless (and obviously harmless) person in the back.
You think our soldiers are cowards like that Old Git? Charming!
If you bothered with some facts Old Git you'd know that at no time has PC Harwood used accusations of 'trouble causing' against Mr Tomlinsonas part of his defence.
I think it is disgusting to liken our soldiers with someone who strikes a defenceless (and obviously harmless) person in the back.
You think our soldiers are cowards like that Old Git? Charming!
-- answer removed --
pdq and aog,
My sentiments entirely. How can people suddenly go from virtually not knowing someone to baying so loudly for 'justice' for their dead relative? It just does not have a ring of authenticity about it? However, human greed's an entirely different and current trait altogether.
We live in an age of litigation, inherited over about the past thirty years from our good ol' American cousins, where their 'sue their butt off' is now endemic in the UK. You only have to watch a TV ad to see what I mean: "Where there's blame, there's a claim" in profound and solemn tones?
aog, Your reference to the brevity of the tape where Harwood is shown pushing Mr Tomlinson to the ground is very much something I've wondered about since I first saw it. Did anything happen prior to that specific incident? We'll never know.
I still believe that Harwood was a very lucky boy indeed to walk away a free man from the manslaughter case, but subsequent cries for his head just sum up the prejudices and blinkered, selective viewpoints of some posters on this forum.
I also agree with your reference to his pension. What other occupation would deny him even in similar circumstances?
My sentiments entirely. How can people suddenly go from virtually not knowing someone to baying so loudly for 'justice' for their dead relative? It just does not have a ring of authenticity about it? However, human greed's an entirely different and current trait altogether.
We live in an age of litigation, inherited over about the past thirty years from our good ol' American cousins, where their 'sue their butt off' is now endemic in the UK. You only have to watch a TV ad to see what I mean: "Where there's blame, there's a claim" in profound and solemn tones?
aog, Your reference to the brevity of the tape where Harwood is shown pushing Mr Tomlinson to the ground is very much something I've wondered about since I first saw it. Did anything happen prior to that specific incident? We'll never know.
I still believe that Harwood was a very lucky boy indeed to walk away a free man from the manslaughter case, but subsequent cries for his head just sum up the prejudices and blinkered, selective viewpoints of some posters on this forum.
I also agree with your reference to his pension. What other occupation would deny him even in similar circumstances?
-- answer removed --
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