Grogan Family

[ironmonger]

I am trying to find the birthplace and DOB of the Father of Owen Grogan born Ireland 1846.. His christian name is Patrick. If anyone can help I would be most grateful
Thank you

[dot.haukes]

Did Owen appear on any English census returns with his family? I know even if he did then it probably would only say Ireland in the where born column, however, in such a case it is always wise to look at an entire ED (enumeration district) as it would be possible that an English parish would have offered Christian assistance to the migrating Irish fleeing from the poverty and starvation of the 1840s and 1850s Ireland.
By doing a detailed study of any other Irish Families living in a Parish, it could well be possible that you identify a group of surnames that will then lead you back to the Irish parish and communication in the Parish Records between the overseers in both parishes that organised the relocation

[craft1948]

Don't know if this is your family...
1861 census living in the parish of Coventry Holy Trinity in Warwickshire
Patrick Grogan born c1821
Mary c1816
Owen c1846
Martin c1854
James c1858
All born in Ireland
Patrick is a Mason's Labourer and Owen a Labourer

[dot.haukes]

Hi Craft, if all the children were born in Ireland on the 1861 (though I would still look at the GRO index to verify the younger ones definately were) then the family came over together, if ironmonger looks at the other Irish families in that Parish (if it is the right family) to see if there are any clues there, but even if the heads of house had given their birthplace, the enumerator was only required to give the Country of Birth if outside England or Wales.

In my book, Irish Genealogy, A Record Finder, it prints the geographical analysis of civil registration births for 1890 in all 4 provinces, it is a very useful index that can sometimes point you in the right place, as some names really did remain common in particular places.
Grogan entries in 1890 numbered 44 9though 5 were a variant spelling) but when the Province entries are broken down, it is clear that the greatest number of registered births for that surname occurred in Leinster. the enreies then broken down into Counties lists Dublin and Topperary as the Counties with the most entries, The way to use this index in relation to the census survey of other orish familes in the same English District, is to compare the surnames of those census families with the instances of the birth entries of 1890 to find common overlaps.

this is a complex way of narrowing down likely counties for research back into the 1800s. It is time comsuming initially, but much research has gone on in recent years to establish migrations in large numbers organised by parish or large employers in England and Wales, this is why many Industrial or large English towns very quickly developed their own Little Ireland (as many towns called them).

[ironmonger]

Thank you craft 1948 and dot hawkes for your replies.
I will now study these and reply to you as soon as I can.Unfortunately at my age it takes me some time to work things out, so please bear with me.
Have a nice day

[craft1948]

Dot I've struggled with this one as Patrick Grogans born about that time were not uncommon in the censuses. I could narrow him down to a possible 1 of 3 in later censuses but not be 100% certain so dare not pursue any individual.

[ironmonger]

Hi dot hawkes and cram1948
Thank you for all the trouble you going to but I am trying to find this information for my cousin who is 89 six years older than me so we are a bit confused by all the Owen Grogans who were around at that time.She assures me that he was born 1846 and married Ellen Carney and lived in Birmingham. So far I have been unable to find an Owen with a father named Patrcik She seems to remember he came from Co Mayo or Rosscommon. The dates she has given me may be a little bit out but I will keep trying. If you discover anything more I will be very grateful

[dot.haukes]

does ironmonger have any idea of patrick's wofe's name, Owen's mother? this might narrow down the couples for a start. I would also then start to identify naming patterns amongst the grogans to see if there is anmy way of deciding who patrick's father might have been. If owen was the eldest son it is likelt Patricks father was an Owen too. things like that are the only way to try to establish connections to the Irish origins.

[dot.haukes]

ironmonger, if owen and ellen married in Birmingham then owen's fathers name should be on their marriage certificate, plus there may be an interesting whitness to the marriage like a brother or sister, have you found the entry and ordered the marriage certificate?

[craft1948]

Owen Grogan (Grogen on marriage certificate) married Ellen Carney in Aston, Warwickshire 1878 Q3 6d 439.
If you use these details you can get a copy of the marriage certificate with Fathers' details.
1881 census shows Owen and Ellen living in Essington Street, Birmingham with son James born 1880.

[craft1948]

1871 census living in Henrietta Street, Birmingham
Martin Grogan c 1815 - I think this is Patrick Martin Grogan
Mary Grogan c 1815
Patrick Grogan c1835
Owen Grogan c1846
All born in Ireland
Martin Grogan c1854
James Grogan c1858
Ann Grogan c1862
Last 3 shown as being born in Coventry

[dot.haukes]

that's brilliant craft cos as long as the births were registered then ironmonger will have the parents names. Thing is in a place that big in the 1850s it was up to the regsitrar to get people to register their babies and people did not trust it, especially people in poor areas. though if patrick was a mason he would be well paid

[craft1948]

This is 1881 for the Grogans (minus the married Owen) and as you can see Martin is called Patrick again but wife and children have same names
Still living in Birmigham
Patrick Grogan c 1817
Mary Grogan c 1816
Patrick W c1841
All the above were born in Mayo, Ireland
James c1859
Annie c1861
Above 2 born in Coventry

Hopefully that's your Patrick Martin Grogan and he's from Mayo....

[dot.haukes]

if he gets the birth certificate assuming the births were registered, he has alot better chance of locating the parish in mayo using both parents family names

[craft1948]

good thinking dot.......this may be the youngest son's birth registration -

James Grogan .....Coventry 1858 Q3 6d 366

[ironmonger]

Thank you once again craft 1948 and dot hawkes, you have given me a lot of info which will take me some time to sort out.. I will send off for the marriage certificate and see what names it turns up. I will let you know the result at a later date on a new thread under the same title Grogan family.
In the meantime have a good life. (Ironmonger)