The 'final Solution'

[scooping]

Just watching some TV and I don't understand why, when the Nazis attained power early in 1933, they waited until 1942 to carry out the mass extermination of the Jews. Absolutely no axe to grind, just puzzled.

[sp1814]

Comprehensive answer here:

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2004/06/the-origins-of-the-final-solution

[scooping]

SP1814. Good stuff. Thanks.

[mikey4444]

Scooping....that answer is that they didn't wait until 1942.

While its true that the Germans built gas chambers and gas ovens in the early 1940s. One of the earliest attempts at genocide was at Babi Yar in Sep 1941.

There is a wealth of info available on the net :::

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Also, I can recommend a Leon Uris book, "Exodus"

[vetuste_ennemi]

Have you read Anatoly Kuznetzov's "Babi Yar", Mikey. It's about a young Jewish boy (himself) growing up in the Russian occupation.

I think it's the kind of book you'd like.

[jim360]

I guess a short, and somewhat cold, answer might be that it's actually logistically very difficult to organise the systematic destruction of an entire religion. So the solution was "final" in the sense that, before then, Germans tried to get rid of Jews and other 'undesirables' in other ways, say by encouraging Jews to leave the country* or just shooting the ones you come across.

I guess, if it was ever planned in advance, maybe Hitler et al preferred to wait until they could deal with the entire "Jewish problem" at once, as in when they controlled mainland Europe.

*Incidentally, Ken Livingstone was therefore technically right when he said that Hitler supported Zionism, but it's a pretty stupid thing to say without context: it's transparently obvious that Hitler's support for a state of Israel was to get rids of the Jews in Germany for his own benefit, rather than theirs, and to therefore claim that he was a Zionist is just offensive. I mention it here only to disassociate myself from such a pathetic reading of history.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Set in Kiev.

[naomi24]

Jim, //Incidentally, Ken Livingstone was therefore technically right when he said that Hitler supported Zionism//

No, he wasn't. Ken Livingstone is ignorant. Hitler never supported Zionism. He simply wanted to get rid of the Jews by shipping them to Palestine.

[jim360]

You mean, like I went on to say later?

[sunny-dave]

With the greatest respect, naomi (which is my not very subtle code for 'you are being a prat') - that is exactly what Jim went on to say.

[naomi24]

Jim, no I don't mean that. You said //it's transparently obvious that Hitler's support for a state of Israel... //

Hitler didn't support the concept of the foundation of a State of Israel. He wanted to send the Jews to live in Palestine.

[naomi24]

sunny-dave, //'you are being a prat'//

Not me.

[jim360]

I'm not prepared to get into an argument when I literally agree with you. Perhaps I put it in a way that was a little too close to what Livingstone said, but since I then went on to say that what he said was rubbish I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to jump in and say "No, what he said was rubbish."

[Peter Pedant]

// Also, I can recommend a Leon Uris book, "Exodus"//

there is a film Exodus - otto preminger - which is pretty terrible and last 208 mins - 3h 20m

it will make you not want to read the book

other things about WW2 I dont understand are
why did France collapse so completely so quickly 1940 ?
if we knew where the German forces were every minute of the war thro enigma why didnt we win it in say mid 1941 ?
why did the Japanese war party not want to give up after Nagasaki and the re bombing of Tokyo in mid august 1945 ?

it can only really be a metter of opinion

[sunny-dave]

I may indeed be a prat - but at least I'm not trying desperately to achieve a reverse ferret by attempting a fatuous, radical alteration of meaning of one of my posts ...

[naomi24]

Jim, you might agree with me now - but you didn't in your last post. The reason I said Livingstone's comment was wrong, as was yours, is because Zionism wasn't on Hitler's agenda.

[naomi24]

sunny-dave, are you not? Hmmm.... I could have sworn ....

[mikey4444]

What a pity that someone had to derail this interesting thread.

Scooping....if you are like me, the more you will read and learn about the Germans treatment of the Jews, the angrier you will become.

I recently re-read "Exodus" and was even angrier that I was when I first read it, in the early 1970's, lying on a Greek Island beach.

Can I also recommend another Leon Uris book......."QB V11"

[mikey4444]

PP...too many questions !

[mikey4444]

SunnyDave....I would give up if I were you.....we all know that Naomi is "never wrong"

[jim360]

"Why did France collapse so completely so quickly 1940 ?"

I'm sure whole books have been written about that. Comes down to a lot of things but credit has to go to the German War machine for being so tactically brilliant in the early stages of the war.

For the Enigma thing, I think again there are lots of reasons, one of which might be that decoding German messages isn't enough if you also don't have the resources needed to exploit that knowledge. Enigma decoding etc was still vital and undoubtedly played a huge role in winning or shortening the war.

I'm not quite sure I can comment on the Japanese decision not to surrender instantly after Hiroshima or, indeed, beforehand. Perhaps it was for essentially similar reasons to why the British ultimately didn't throw in the towel in 1940?