Why did Hitler not order the capture of Dunkerque?

[LoungeLizard]

I have read that, in 1939, German combat tank regiments were hours away from the encircled British Expeditionary Force, with commanders chomping at the bit. Why were they (apparently) stopped by Hitler for several days allowing the B.E.F. to escape?

Also, why were the French and British forces so ineffective (apart from at retreating); the German tanks were not that good at that early stage of the war?

[LazyGun]

You might be referring to the battle of Dunkirk, the end result was the evacuation of english and french troops back to England. If so, this actually happened between May26 and June 3rd ish 1940.

If I remember my history lessons (hazy recall nowadays!), the german tanks stopped for two reasons;
1.To refuel and regroup prior to attacking the french forces
2.Terrain around Dunkirk was not considered particularly suitable for tanks, so harassing the english forces was left to the Luftwaffe

[LoungeLizard]

Sorry Lazy, you are quite right about the date, my mistake.

Any ideas about why the Geman army were so much more effective than the French & British?

[mimififi]

The way I have always understood it is that simply the German forces were by far the more disciplined and funded. Germany had spent most of their time preparing for another war since the end of the great war and certainly non-stop from the rising of Hitler. Hitler's four year plan started way before 39 in some respects.

Also, I think I remember something about the fact that the french/british didn't really realise what a threat Hitler might be, the whole, well it's Eastern Europes problem, that when Hitler finally turned west, there was a certain amount of unpreparedness on the french/dutch side. Also, France was still in a mess following the great war.

However, this is all very hazy half remembered/half supposition. I could well stand corrected in the face of hard core historic fact, and I could go and retrieve my European history notes, but they're in the attic and it's cold up there with spiders and i don't really feel like going up there right now.....Sorry Lounge.

Also, Hitler in his arrogance didn't always go straight for the kill as he viewed himself invinvible and probably wasn't in a hurry to close in on an already seemingly helpless force.....perhaps.

[LazyGun]

Im afraid I dont know enough about Military Tactics and Strategy Lizard.

I always felt that it was essentially that the Germans were fulled "tooled up", and the BEF were underequipped.

[spacechimp]

I have heard that this was just a mystery of the war. Hitler ordered the tanks to stop and nobody knows why.

[gary baldy]

There is also the historical argument that claims that Hitler had no desire to invade the UK. He, after all, didnt declare war on the UK. Also I think the Germans were surprised themselves how quickly they advanced through Europe and they simply werent ready to carry out a very risky invasion or an island nation.
Hitler had no ideological opposition or territorial desires with regards to Britain his main desires lay in mainland Europe and after clearing that business up he turned his attentions towards his real problem - the Soviet Union. He didnt want a war on two fronts so commited himself to the East.

[johnlambert]

the British and German surviving General Staff met at Sandhurst in 1974 and played a war game where they enacted what would have happened if the Germans had invaded. Using the same resources as they had at the time, it was agreed that the German army would have been allowed to land and after fierce fighting, (most of the UK was prepared for invasion) and a counter attack by the British the Germans would have to retreat back to the landing craft where they would have been pounced on by the Royal Navy (still at that time the 2nd largest in the world). After 7-10 days the Germans would surrender leaving Great Britain the leading power in Europe. All this depended on the RAF keeping the Luftwaffe at bay, and we all know what happened during the Battle of Britain where the RAF had 17 kills to the Luftwaffe 1,

[brionon]

I think that Hitler admired the British Empire and wanted to come to an agreement with Britain -that we should keep our Empire in exchange for a free hand in Europe. It is to our credit that, even in that perilous time, we refused.He spared our troops in Dunkerke for that reason.

[Lonnie]

As I understand it, and i'll concentrate on the second part of you post, the Germans would probably have never got through the Maginot Line, also, the French Tanks were better and more numerous than the German ones, the difference being that they ran out of fuel faster, also, the Stukas played an important part, the idea having been pinched from the Americans, much the same way the Japanese pinched the Idea of torpedo bombers ar Pearl Harbour.

The problem with the Maginot Line, was it should have stretched from coast to coast, but it only went from border to border, and once the Blitzkreig got started around the ends, the French, who didn;t have much stomach for the fight anyway, just folded, and the British, not having the support of their allies, had no choice but to retreat.

As has already been said, Hitler never wanted to fight the British, wanting just one front for his push against Communist Russia, which was his main goal,

This is just theory, and again, its been mentioned in an above post, The Germans themselves were unprepared for how fast they got to the coast,but if they had invaded straight away, they probably would have succeeded,

[johnlambert]

As i said Lonnie, had the Germans invaded the battle would have lasted about a week to 10 days before the germans are forced to retreat, then, being finished off by the Royal Navy. both the British and Germans agree this after playing an enormous war game in 1974

[Lonnie]

Thats very true johnlambert, no arguement on that, but I was talking about what if the German Army had followed our soldiers accross the Channel, there were no defense plans in operation at that time.

[stanleyman]

Lonnie, the questioner never asked about invading and how would the Germans have followed straight away with no boats, equipment or invading troops ready, there weren't any ferries running?

When Hitler did consider invading with Operation Sealion they didn't have the boats and had to requision hundreds of Dutch, Belgian and French barges for conversion to tank and troop carriers and that took some time to do (I still own one complete with spitfire bullet holes).

Operation Sealion was eventually shelved but that is what I believe the war games were about. D Day itself took years of planning and hard work to achieve.

[Lonnie]

stanleyman, yes I agree totally that the question had nothing to do with invasion, johnlambert first brought it up, as the war games, and I put down the theory that I did, and it was entirely possible for them to do it, the Germans never had their navy, and neither did we, but they did have their airforce, the didn't need tanks etc, they could have followed after. the army could have used the same method our troops used to get back, plenty of small boats around. but its theory, nothing else.

[stanleyman]

Lonnie, I don't think you realise what a logistical nightmare an invasion is for any side. The image of triumphant and gung ho German troops jumping into what was left of any wrecked boats at Dunkerque (my grandfather was killed there by the way) to chase the Brits back to England with the Royal Navy on patrol and then invade the country with no armour, artillery, ammunition, medics, transport, food or any other backup is laughable. The Germans are not daft even if Hitler was.

You can't send on a whim a handful of ill trained and ill equipped seasick troops in unprepared and shot up civy boats and expect them to succeed no matter how big your airforce is. At least the expeditionary force was planned but not good enough and they also had help getting home. As a former Royal engineer I know only too well how difficult it is getting an army and its massive supplies over just a river, let alone the English Channel. More history needed before giving these daft and impossible theories.

[onslow1]

This conjures up an interesting 'what if' scenario. If WWII were happening today, could German airborne forces seize the English end of the channel tunnel and hold it until the heavy units arrived by train to break out of the tunnel 'beachead'?