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This may well cause offence but here goes...
Why is a question that has no discernible political slant but does contain the word "holocaust" deemed to be "highly provocative"?
Have we gone one step further than Austria and made it a crime to even mention the word?
Surely discussion of the atrocity even in an abstract form, such as pondering how the political/religious landscape would have changed in the subsequent 60 years, can only underscore what a terrible event in human history this was.
Why is a question that has no discernible political slant but does contain the word "holocaust" deemed to be "highly provocative"?
Have we gone one step further than Austria and made it a crime to even mention the word?
Surely discussion of the atrocity even in an abstract form, such as pondering how the political/religious landscape would have changed in the subsequent 60 years, can only underscore what a terrible event in human history this was.
I think it is an interesting question.
Firstly would there have been a second world war.? Persecution started in the thirties and was part of the master plan to produce a master race. Therefore would Poland ect been invaded and would we have gone to war.?
Jno brings up a very interesting point. Would there be an Israel? I think not because the Jews would not have been displaced and would probably still be living in Europe.
It could also be argued that the industrial landscape could be very different today with Europe being able to better withstand the increasing industrial might of the far east.
I certainly think the shape and politics of the world would be completely different and possibly to the better if those dreadful events had'nt occurred.
Well Hitler said more or less that he was only using the Jews as a scapegoat. It but the killing of the Jews wouldn�t have made a massive difference in the big scheme of things.
Israel probably wouldn�t have been founded but in the big scheme of things.
Would the Nazis have got the atom bomb because a lot of the best physicists were Jewish Albert Einstein? If Hitler didn�t single out the Jews maybe but I doubt it
Maybe the companys that were owned by jews would have backed the state and be better run
would hitler have even goten into power if he did not use the jews as a scapegoat.
but thats offtopic the fact is it did and 6 million jews died and 12 millin people died in the camps and we are still living with that fact
Israel probably wouldn�t have been founded but in the big scheme of things.
Would the Nazis have got the atom bomb because a lot of the best physicists were Jewish Albert Einstein? If Hitler didn�t single out the Jews maybe but I doubt it
Maybe the companys that were owned by jews would have backed the state and be better run
would hitler have even goten into power if he did not use the jews as a scapegoat.
but thats offtopic the fact is it did and 6 million jews died and 12 millin people died in the camps and we are still living with that fact
True but during the second world war one reason for Germany's productivity was their use of slave labour - its possible without this they would have folded before 1945 or maybe not opened up a second front.
I wonder if Jewish people would still be seen as slightly mysterious - I did a module on immigration and diasporas and one the things the second world war did was dispel the myth that the Jews were some huge secret power. Certainly Israel would not have been founded - whether they would have tried I do not know.
I wonder if Jewish people would still be seen as slightly mysterious - I did a module on immigration and diasporas and one the things the second world war did was dispel the myth that the Jews were some huge secret power. Certainly Israel would not have been founded - whether they would have tried I do not know.
I do think its aprovocative question, but a legitimate one, I don't think, except for the Holocaust itself, there would have beem much change.
The State of Israel would still have been formed, don't forget, because of the Pogroms in Germany, Russia, and other countries, Pre-War, Jews were journying to Palestine anyway.
At that time, Palestine was a British Mandate, and they were only alwing Quota's in, but many more made it despite of this.
I believe that there would still have been a 2nd World War, because Germany under Hitler, under the pretext of freeing the expat Germans, would still have invaded Poland, and events, except for the Gas Chambers, would still have unfolded as they had.
Because of this, on the Jewish Question, the Perscution would have spread, (pre-war), it was spreading at an alarming rate anyway, including to a degree, America and Britain.
Without the Holocaust we wouldnt have stolen Palestine off the Palestinians and handed it over to the Zionists because we felt guilty.
We wouldnt have then had half a century of bitter fighting and bloodshed and the world wouldnt be in the precarious state it is now.
Ironically in attempting to get rid of the Jews the Nazis only succeeded in making them even more powerful.
We wouldnt have then had half a century of bitter fighting and bloodshed and the world wouldnt be in the precarious state it is now.
Ironically in attempting to get rid of the Jews the Nazis only succeeded in making them even more powerful.
Sorry to go off track a bit...
It was during the First World War, that British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine. After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild in Nov 1917.
The Ottoman Empire sided with Germany in WW1 and when defeated, Britain & France were granted control over former Ottoman territories by the League of Nations. France got Syria, Britain got what is now Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jordan.
Jewish immigration to the Holy Land had been going on since the 1880's and increased at the outbreak of WW2 due to Nazi persecution. The Arab world wanted to limit the numbers and therefore there were clashes between Jewish immigrants and Palestinians (supported by neighbouring Arab states).
In 1947 Britain gave up it's mandate and the UN suggested 2 states (one arab, one jewish). The Jewish accepted but the arabs did not and when the State of Israel was declared Egypt, Syria & Jordan attacked but were beaten back. And so on and so forth for 60 years or so.
If the holocaust had not happened, then perhaps less jews would have tried to get to the Holy Land and maybe more would be in the world today, but I doubt there would still have been peace in the middle east. Ih Hitler ojnly wanted to rid Germany of the Jewish race then wouldn't he have stopped at his own borders?
I almost agree with david small, and I find Swedes a little sour.
It was during the First World War, that British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine. After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild in Nov 1917.
The Ottoman Empire sided with Germany in WW1 and when defeated, Britain & France were granted control over former Ottoman territories by the League of Nations. France got Syria, Britain got what is now Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jordan.
Jewish immigration to the Holy Land had been going on since the 1880's and increased at the outbreak of WW2 due to Nazi persecution. The Arab world wanted to limit the numbers and therefore there were clashes between Jewish immigrants and Palestinians (supported by neighbouring Arab states).
In 1947 Britain gave up it's mandate and the UN suggested 2 states (one arab, one jewish). The Jewish accepted but the arabs did not and when the State of Israel was declared Egypt, Syria & Jordan attacked but were beaten back. And so on and so forth for 60 years or so.
If the holocaust had not happened, then perhaps less jews would have tried to get to the Holy Land and maybe more would be in the world today, but I doubt there would still have been peace in the middle east. Ih Hitler ojnly wanted to rid Germany of the Jewish race then wouldn't he have stopped at his own borders?
I almost agree with david small, and I find Swedes a little sour.
The Final Solution of the Jewish Question refers to the German Nazis' plan to engage in systematic genocide against the European Jewish population during World War II. The execution of the Final Solution resulted in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust.
The Nazi regime was characterised by political control of every aspect of society in a quest for racial (Aryan, Nordic), social and cultural purity.
The Nazi regime maintained concentration camps as labour camps and prisons since the beginning of their regime in 1933. After the beginning of the war, they also established extermination camps for the industrialised mass murder of the Jews of Europe. Gas chambers, firing squad, medical experiments, target practice for german troops etc etc.
Hatred of the Jews was central to Nazi ideology. After coming to power in 1933, the Nazis initially hoped to force all German Jews to leave the country. Jews were gradually excluded from German society. They were dismissed from the civil service and from university, medical and legal posts. Jewish businesses were 'Aryanised' or confiscated. Antisemitic propaganda was widespread. The Nuremberg Laws of 1935 deprived German Jews of their citizenship.
Jews (and other ethnic groups) were considered "undesirables" and it is probable that they were not even considered fit to partake in a Nazi Germany or a German Army even as cannon fodder.
The Nazi regime was characterised by political control of every aspect of society in a quest for racial (Aryan, Nordic), social and cultural purity.
The Nazi regime maintained concentration camps as labour camps and prisons since the beginning of their regime in 1933. After the beginning of the war, they also established extermination camps for the industrialised mass murder of the Jews of Europe. Gas chambers, firing squad, medical experiments, target practice for german troops etc etc.
Hatred of the Jews was central to Nazi ideology. After coming to power in 1933, the Nazis initially hoped to force all German Jews to leave the country. Jews were gradually excluded from German society. They were dismissed from the civil service and from university, medical and legal posts. Jewish businesses were 'Aryanised' or confiscated. Antisemitic propaganda was widespread. The Nuremberg Laws of 1935 deprived German Jews of their citizenship.
Jews (and other ethnic groups) were considered "undesirables" and it is probable that they were not even considered fit to partake in a Nazi Germany or a German Army even as cannon fodder.
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