brass monkey balls

[slovetthorn]

where does the saying 'freeze the balls off a brass monkey' come from?

[Ewood27]

Take a look at http://www.word-detective.com/back-r.html#monkeys for some insight into the origin of the phrase.

[wildwood]

Had a look at the link from Ewood27, and am now confused. My understanding of the phrase is that it originates from canon balls stacked up on a monkey [a brass tray with an edge] used on older ships. When it freezes hard, the brass contracts and the canon balls fall off the tray.

[Kit]

Yes, I'd understood that as well, wildwood - however World Wide Words gives an argument to the contrary: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bra1.htm and concludes that it's of unknown origin. The search continues!

[sft42]

I have to say I am in total agreement with wildwood on this one...i didn't post an answer when i seen one had been given as i assumed that it would be correct...to quote my dictionary of phrases an sayings "A brass monkey has nothing to do with any animal....was the name given to the plate on a warship's deck (usually brass) where the lead cannonballs where stored.....in cold weather the brass would contract causing ther stack to fall..Monkey was a common slang term in gunnery days and not just at sea..there was a small cannon known as a monkey and the young boys who would help the gunners were known as powder monkeys". Source - Bloomsbury Dictionary of Phrase & Saying

[Kit]

Ah, sft42, but.....
To quote from World Wide Words, the phrase was "... first recorded in the USA in the early part of this century. There is some suspicion, because of a citation from 1835, that the phrase may in fact be at least of this age. There is a story, often repeated, that the phrase originated in naval warfare at the time of the Napoleonic wars, if not before. It is said that the stack of cannon balls alongside each gun, arranged in a pyramid on a brass plate to save space, was called a monkey. In very cold weather, it is related, the cannon balls would shrink and balls would fall off the stack. Though monkey was a term used in this context and era (the boys bringing charges to the guns from the magazine were known as powder monkeys and there is some evidence that a type of cannon was called a monkey in the mid seventeenth century), there is no evidence for the word being applied to a pile of cannon shot. The explanation sounds like a story that's been woven around a term already well known and is full of logical holes: would they pile shot into a pyramid? (hugely unsafe on a rolling and pitching deck); why a brass plate? (far too expensive, and unnecessary: they actually used wooden frames with holes in, called garlands, fixed to the sides of the ship); was the plate and pile together actually called a monkey? (no evidence, as I say); would cold weather really cause such shrinkage as to cause balls to fall off? (highly improbable, as all the balls would reduce in size equally and the differential movement between the brass plate and the iron balls would be only a fraction of a millimetre). Fun story, though."

[Pinotage]

The "Word Detective" is not a reliable source, especially when talking about British matters he makes glaring errors and doesn't reply to emails. Michael Quinion's World Wide Words - http://www.worldwidewords.org - is well researched, he give sources, and he responds to emails. If you are at all interested in words, their meanings and derivation then subscribe to his weekly email newsletter

[jenstar]

A friend of mine who works at the historic dockyard in Portsmouth reckons that though the term "brass monkey" has been used for a cannonball holder, this name comes from the phrase "to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" and not the other way round. I am pretty certain myself that the phrase really does come from the vulgar origin, and that the cannonball explanation was cooked up later as a "polite" way of explaining the phrase.

[boognish76]

That cannonball explanation is an etymological urban myth. The true origin is the one given on the website in the first reply. Brass monkeys are cold. Therefore in order to freeze the balls off one it would have to be really cold. It's as simple as that.

[sdacre]

Subject: brass monkey In the heyday of sailing ships, all war ships and many freighters carried iron cannons. Those cannon fired round iron cannon balls. It was necessary to keep a good supply near the cannon. But how to prevent them from rolling about the deck? The best storage method devised was a square based pyramid with one ball on top, resting on four resting on nine which rested on sixteen. Thus, a supply of thirty cannon balls could be stacked in a small area right next to the cannon. There was only one problem -- how to prevent the bottom layer from sliding/rolling from under the others. The solution was a metal plate called a "Monkey" with sixteen round indentations. But, if this plate was made of iron, the iron balls would quickly rust to it. The solution to the rusting problem was to make "Brass Monkeys." Few landlubbers realize that brass contracts much more and much faster than iron when chilled. Consequently, when the temperature dropped too far, the brass indentations would shrink so much that the iron cannon balls would come right off the monkey. Thus, it was quite literally, "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey!" P.S. SLOVETTHORN boy friend (never believes me)

[stoory]

why should there be one definitive origin? like some of the others i was of the understanding that it originated as a naval saying. I'm glad to have expanded that. surely a phrase can have more than one meaning and origin?