Can A Decent Man Achieve Success In This...
Society & Culture6 mins ago
Is there a god?
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Is there a god? I mean look at all the different relgions around the world who all believe that THEY are right & the others are wrong. They can't all be right can they. Which is why in my opion it all rubbish.
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(IX) Merlin, your next point in the most recent post concerning prophecy, was a true non sequitur. Your appeal to the evidence I've presented for inerrancy, especially in the prophetic writings is to reply using an escape hatch, i.e.,"could have". Come on, I expected better than that from you.
I have to be gone until Monday, but if you want to discuss evolution next, fine. Just let me know which version of the theory you want to postulate on. Poor ol' Mr. Darwin has been so raked over the coals for so many years (by scientists as well as other interested observers)that I'ts best to understand what you actually mean by 'evolution'. Punctuated equilibrium? Hopeful monster?
Finally, you state you don't have to prove God doesn't exist, to which I heartily agree. However, the rest of your statement to the effect that "it's not a matter of faith, and doesn't have to be supported by documentation", simply implies that you have no rational basis for your belief. As to purple people-eaters... if I expressed 'faith" in their existence, you would certainly ask (and rightly so) what the basis for my belief was. So I definitely have the "right" to ask for the sources of your beliefs. To say you don't need to provide them is a smarmy method of deflecting points that doesn't become you, Merlin. Your namesake wouldn't be proud of that at all...
Oh, answers to your query concerning prophecy
1. nearly 2,500, as I stated earlier.
2. No
3. Why limit it to 100 years?
4. I Don't understand the question
(X) Last one... I see that I haven't addressed your last 5 paragraphs.
I sincerely cannot decipher what you mean by 'parenthisis of eternity'. I understand the meanings of the words individually, but haven't a clue as to what you mean in the statement... I realize it's my denseness, please help me out. God is clearly outside of His creation, that is, He is not bound by that which He created, especially time, length, breadth, etc. Therefore, He not only can see all the past, present and future, He is simultaneously in all three. Therefore an omnipotent God, that I can only begin to know, can certainly know the consequences of your decisions, since He is simultaneously there at the time of the consequence as He is at the time of your decision. Furthermore, Isaiah 46:10 states: "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
(Whole Chapter: Isaiah 46 In context: Isaiah 46:9-11). God not only "knew" of your decision when you made it, He knew the decision and its consequence before time was created by Him. There is only one possible outcome, but God is the only one that knows that. But by "knowing" the end from the beginning does not imply (emphasis added)that He "set the course". His knowledge cannot be construed as pre-determination.
I hope this helps you sleep better...
I.R., I sincerely hope you'll read section (X) that I just posted. I think it's important to understand that God is YahWeh, the I Am. He does know your future in exquisite detail, otherwise He wouldn't be an all knowing God. But His knowing in no way limits your free will. Not only that, but if you've said yes to Yeshua Ha'Mashiach, you are the apple of God's eye. You are His treasure. You are bought with a price beyond measure. A current song goes, "I'll never know just what it cost to see my sins upon that cross".
Which reminds me, I really do need to respond to one of the questioners that asked about the Trinity and God turning away from Yeshua.
Any way, have a nice weekend. And remember SHA-ALU SHALOM YIRUSHALAYIM, pray for the peace of Jerusalem...
Clanad.
Weekend(1) I think I know enough to inform my philosophy and I readily concede that I am no astrophysicist and that we don�t know what caused this universe to become. We can only postulate. There may be excellent evidence for one view or another, but there is still no definitive proof.
But I have to repeat that �faith� is not a factor in my view of the cosmos. As I may have mentioned before, it may seem like a very subtle difference, a split hair maybe (don�t you just hate those) or even seem like no difference at all, but a definition of �faith� is �A firm belief in something for which there is no proof�. Excuse me while I allow myself a little titter here, but I have �A firm NON-belief in something for which there is no proof�. Not the same thing. LOL (have you used that one El D? lol again). Sorry, couldn�t help myself. You can call it faith in future if you like, I don�t mind really. I�m just being lite before the weekend. Pedantic semantics.
But that does lead on to another matter; definitions. In order to conduct a useful debate, we must know what the words mean and whether your understanding of a word is the same as mine. Take �universe� for example � I took it to mean a single entirety, all that there is. So to speak of more than one universe or to speak of multiverses leaves me a little confused. What does it mean?
Weekend (2) Now, you could have saved yourself an awful lot of keystrokes by saying �I appeal to the argument from probability�. And I think there was also a small appeal to the argument from design in there too. As I mentioned to IR a little while ago, these and other standard arguments are easily rebutted.
BTW � you have assumed the wrong �Merlin� � nothing to do with magic or any fictitious bloke of Merry Old England. And I�m disappointed that you didn�t pick up on the clue in my short prophecy posting. See http://www.bto.org/birdtrends/wcrmerli.htm - pretty and deadly, don�t you think?
This posting excludes any response to your points 9 & 10 � I WILL get to those later. They look most interesting and deserving of the more serious consideration that I have not recently rendered. Have a good one.
IR / CLANNAD
Prophets: forgive me if I'm wrong, but (and this is in very simple linear terms) presumably the reason that the prophets of the OT are able to predict future events, is that God has given them information about the future. Now if God controls all space and time then what is the point in telling them that, for example, a catastrophic war or plague is on the cards when there's absolutely nothing that the prophets or the people they tell can do to change it - It's going to happen regardless of their actions - Thus he has stripped them, and the enire human race of their free will.
So if he has taken away free will, then why not just make everyone belive or obey him with no drama - a world full of mindless drones (instead of half full like it is now!).
If you believe in God, what conclusion could you make from God's actions here? That he is a vindictive and possibly evil god by taunting his people this way? Much like telling one of the contestants in a boxing match that his opponent called his mother a *****, just to see a better fight!
If you believe these prophesies, then you're f***ed if you do - f***ed if you don't, becuse if you bow to God's will and God says, "Well seeing as you've been good, loyal little followers I'll remove that catastrophic war from the future" then the prophesy ceases-to-be.
luckily I don't believe God so I don't have to worry about his / her questionable motives or the paradox which the prophecies present.
I think it depends on what you believe. I personally do not think that there is a god, I am no christian, I have not ever pretended to be and I will never really understand how people can place their faith in something so transparent. But that's not for me to question...
I think, for Christians... obviously, I don't know... but I think God is not really a person, he is a concept. It's so much easier to believe that there is something to lean against and have as a sort of 'security blanket', so that when someone has sinned, they feel that they are forgiven when they 'find God' or basically 'find a way out of it'.
I personally (not wanting to disrespect any religion) think Religion is totally wrong. It's the biggest cause of war, it's (again, in my opinion) only placing your faith in something that isn't there, that isn't corporeal or visable, and in some cases, proven to be contradicting and wrong. I not a believer in 'you have to see it to believe it', anything but, but even I have trouble in believing in something that there hasn't really been any solid, REAL evidence that existed. How do you know that the bible wasn't written by a lunatic? To me, it resembles something like that.
Thats just it though. Why is religion placed upon such a pedestal. can it not look after itself? Its had centuries of protection from even offhand criticism and now all of a sudden people have a bit of freedom its getting the trashing that such an old cannabalistic, ritualistic and downright freaky brainwashing cult deserves. But as soon as it does, people leap to its defence. I insult all religions freely. If people don't like it they should turn the other cheek. Or would that be too religious for them? Religion should have no speical protection, the sooner more people face up to the realities, harsh as they are, the sooner religion will die the death it deserves in a properly afvanced civilisation, none of this eating the body of a resurrected living god and drinking his blood.
Clanad - Prophecies (1)
I thought I would spend just a little time looking into prophecies. I entered �prophecies in the bible� into Google and the first site that came up was http://100prophecies.org/
The first one in the list �10 fulfilled long ago� was �Babylon would rule Judah for 70 years�. This was prophecied in Jeremiah 25:11-12. Jeremiah was commanded by God to write down all the words which He had spoken to him in the fourth year of Jehoiakim, son of Josiah, that is in 605 B.C. In that same year 605 B.C., Judah's king, Jehoiakim, changed his loyalty to the Babylonians rather than the Egyptians and became Nebuchadnezzar's vassal king. King Zedekiah allowed the nobles to arrest Jeremiah as a traitor for urging the nation to submit to Babylon. Jeremiah was offered a place of honor by the Babylonians for urging the Jews to submit to them.
Jeremiah seemed to be politically aware and to be ideally positioned to learn of and influence state decisions and one interpretation of this information is that Jeremiah knew what was happening because he had the king�s confidence and actually facilitated the event even while he was publishing his prophecy.
This is only one prophecy, I know, and you know that when the auditors come in, they always pick on the account you least want them to see. Of course, my information may be wrong. I didn�t do a great deal of research. It took me about 10-15 minutes to get this and it may not be an authoritative source. But nonetheless��..hmmmmmmm??
Prophecies(2): The next prophecy I looked at was the first one in the list �10 more fulfilled long ago� No cherry-picking here!. Daniel predicted the four great kingdoms� (Daniel 2:32-33), written about 530 BC, to be fulfilled throughout history and to be completed during End Times.The first great kingdom (The head of gold) was in existence at the time of writing. The narrative explaining this prediction, when referring to the subsequent kingdoms, contains the phrases �Christian scholars have often interpreted�, �Some scholars believe that this is a reference to�, �has often been suggested to be a reference to�, and the interpretation of the symbols seems to be simply the next 3 kingdoms that came along. History was interpreted in a contrived way so that the prediction could be �interpreted� as having been fulfilled.
This is only the second prophecy that I looked at. Of course, my information may be wrong. I didn�t do a great deal of research. It took me about 5-10 minutes to get this and it may not be an authoritative source. But nonetheless��..hmmmmmmm??
And I thought it important to let you know what website I took the info from. (Can you guess what�s coming???)
Prophecies(3): Deuteronomy 18:21-22: Now that�s a very convenient passage indeed!!:
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
Simply put, if a prophecy is not fulfilled, then it was not God�s prophecy. How daft would it have been for a prophet (I am assuming it was Moses) or God to say �Wait and see if the prophecy comes true � that�s how you will know if it�s mine or not!� Duuuuuhhhhh!!!!. And how very convenient for prophecy apologists � it would not surprise me to discover that this passage was inserted later, then all the unfulfilled prophecies could be disowned on God�s behalf!
You know, rather than use so many postings about prophecies, you could have just pointed us to the site http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml? main � that is where all your info was cut-and-paste from, isn�t it?. I suspect now that you could have pointed us to whatever site it was that provided all the astrophysical data that you posted while castigating me for not knowing the current thinking, and your long-winded appeal to the argument from probability.
Prophecies (4): Can YOU say, as I asked previously and now paraphrase, how many prophecies are there that predict the Israelites would eventually have their own homeland? Have you counted them all separately? How many prophecies were there that could possibly have been construed as predicting the birthplace of the Messiah as somewhere other than Bethlehem.? How many wrong prophecies are there? How did Hugh Ross calculate the probability of a prediction being fulfilled? And how many prophecies were fulfilled because they were known about and could be fulfilled by person or persons acting deliberately in a way that could be deemed a fulfillment � rather a moot point, perhaps, as from your point of view, it was fulfilled anyway. There was me thinking that this was a subject on which you were authoritative! There was me being impressed by the number of ologies that I thought you had. It seems that I am debating with the collective knowledge of the planet rather than your own views. I do apologise most profusely if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but it�s understandable in the circumstances.
Prophecies (5): And BTW, you castigated me again for suggesting that books containing prophecies could have been written after the event- �False once more�, you said. When did God prophecy the flood to Noah? And when did Moses write about the flood in Genesis � before or after the event? Are you going to claim that Moses and his writings were saved on the Ark? This was a prophecy in a book that was written after the event � how many more are there? Perhaps this was just a prediction or advice and not a prophecy?
I have not dismissed �your� argument from prophecy nor the prophecies themselves out of hand, I have bothered to do a little research. The more I look, the weaker the case for prophecies becomes.
Prophecies (6): You understood my �parenthesis� analogy OK. In that argument, God is outside of all time and simultaneously present at all time. I can �picture� God knowing every detail of the future even before decisions are made, but I cannot reconcile that with having free will. If an omnipotent and infallible God was to announce what I was going to decide and what I was going to say and what I was going to do, then, as you say, there is only one possible outcome. This means that there is no alternative. I will not be free to make an alternative decision or take alternative actions. You say that �God is the only one that knows�. It seems, then, that the deciding factor in your view is whether God makes a prophecy or keeps it to himself. If he keeps it to himself, then no-one knows that there is no free-will and he is tricking us, or he is sometimes wrong and doesn�t want that fact to leak out. If he makes a prophecy, then it is certainly set in stone because if I took an alternative decision, then it would show God to be wrong. And that is incompatible with an omnipotent and infallible God.
There is a conflict between God�s knowledge of the future and free will. If God knows the future so definitely that accurate prophecies can be made, then there cannot be free will. If there is no free will, then there is no purpose to religion and the generally-accepted notions of God are negated. When you say, in the prayer that JC taught the world, �Thy will be done�, what, exactly, do you mean?
If God makes a prophecy concerning you, then you have lost your free will by the act of God making that prophecy.
I believe thier is a God!!! Who created us and has a purpose for our life? That is why we are on earth ? and we find our identity. This God is not a cosmic force or energy but based on a relationship with him. Can talk to him and he talks about.He directs our path and future. And helps us make decisions.This God sent his one aand only son on earth to help people,show love and care,bring miracles and healings and hope.His name is Jesus.Gods son. How do I get to know this God ? A:admit you do things wrong
B.Belive God sent Jesus to die on cross for your sins(wrong things you have done)etc we are all selfish at times!
Consider what God did by sending his only son to to die for you.And he also rose on third day and is alive today in heaven.
Make a decision to believe in God ? choice is yours ? God is knocking on the door of your heart.Will you let him come in so you can experience the living God
I believe thier is a God!!! Who created us and has a purpose for our life? That is why we are on earth ? and we find our identity. This God is not a cosmic force or energy but based on a relationship with him. Can talk to him and he talks about.He directs our path and future. And helps us make decisions.This God sent his one aand only son on earth to help people,show love and care,bring miracles and healings and hope.His name is Jesus.Gods son. How do I get to know this God ? A:admit you do things wrong
B.Belive God sent Jesus to die on cross for your sins(wrong things you have done)etc we are all selfish at times!
Consider what God did by sending his only son to to die for you.And he also rose on third day and is alive today in heaven.
Make a decision to believe in God ? choice is yours ? God is knocking on the door of your heart.Will you let him come in so you can experience the living God
Well, Merlin, you've sure got me there! I find it highly ironic that you castigate me for using sources other than my own wit and the first quote use utilize comes from a web site. Let's get one thing perfectly clear; whatever "ologies" you attributed to me were of your own making. I neither encouraged them nor claimed them. You well know that I have, throughout this debate, referenced sources and have asked that you and other's reference their sources as well. To my recollection, this is the first time you reference any source and it's a web site!
Dr. Hugh Ross is a well respected Ph. D., is a science and astrophysics professor and has spent a lifetime studying much of what we have discussed. To not use his as well as other sources is folly. Does that mean I, or anyone else seeking to understand the nature of God, can't study and understand writings of others? Certainly not.
I see that the Nobel Prize for physics was awrded recenlty. That prize was for study on "quarks"... the interaction of neutrons and protons in the subatomic nucleus, as they relate to the the attempt to unifying the four fundamental forces in nature. I read their study and guess what... I can have some understanding of it. Because I may not have a complete understanding of formulae, then I shouldn't reference their work, according to your reasoning.
I'll repeat... I've asked that you, El duerino and others provide the basis for your beliefs. You provide yourself an escape hatch by saying that "I don't have to get as far as having to deny the existence of God. I ask why consider their is a God in the first place". But any interpretation of those two sentences indicate the bottom line... you choose not believe in God. That's your choice and I'm not, as stated prviously, arguing against your right to choose as you wish.
