Happy 'Battle of Hastings Day'!

[Mosaic]

It's always intrigued me why we don't mark this huge turning point in our nation's history. What better excuse is there to dress up, wave flags and weapons, and celebrate the English love of defeat.....

[jake-the-peg]

Hmm - not really convinced about the Witenagemot argument. Considering the power that Harold held in the country at the time it seems unlikely to me that it was some sort of papal conclave with wise heads coming to a just and honorable choice.

Given the weight given to oaths and fealty then - if Harold did swear the oath to William that would be just as strong a bond and as powerful a legal argument then.

I know that the evidence there comes from the victors but in the same sence Harolds rightful claim comes from those wanting to portray the story of the conquest as the barbaric and vicious colonisation by a power with no right to rule.

Especially after Hereward the Wake and the harrowing of the North that is a story with a powerful appeal.

Of course this is the irony - especially when people say things like we're not speaking French - well we're not speaking old English either.

We are all an amalgam - which of us knows how many Norman or Saxon or even British ancestors we have?

Both cultures are long gone

[Mosaic]

Beg to differ with the cultures having long gone, Jake. Most of the same people are still here - ie people descended from long occupants of these islands - and I believe many of our cultural values come from a distant past. Without getting too Tolkien-ish, we still talk about the shires, we still get ratty about the post office ditching shires, we love the countryside and animals, and the sense of justice and fair play seems a good counterpart to our general preparedness to stand up for the underdog.
And a gigantic pain threshold when it comes to tolerating idiot rulers.

[Mosaic]

I'm really enjoying everyone's contributions here - hope others find the same interest.

[jake-the-peg]

The countryside was strip farmed well into the middle ages

Much of our legal system we owe to Henry II

William I abolished slavery which was still practiced in Saxon England (fair play?!!?)

Then wer have the issue of weregild where a man's life had a fixed value and if you killed him you payed it and that was the punishment.

I really think people have an attachment to a rather idealised saxon England - our cultural values of fair play have more to do with the Enlightenment and people like Voltaire and Rousseau than with Saxon warlords like Harold

I think people are rather attached to a rather romanticised idea of Saxon England - yes I do think Tolkein has rather something to do with that!

As for DNA I did enjoy the 100% English program on Channel 4 when they looked at the DNA of a rumber of leading right wingers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100%25_English

One woman from some sort of battle of hastings society tried to sue them after she was told that she had significant sub-sarahan african genes in her "very recent familly tree".

Disappointingly though Norman Tebbit did turn out to have the highest level of native genetic markers

[Mosaic]

Could this mean The Tebbit is our uber-father......
Wergild wasn't always used in Saxon times, they did occasionally execute people too, but more often enslaved wrongdoers to make them useful until such time as they could buy back their freedom. Saxon slavery was not at all like later colonial slavery...it was very widespread, and practical, and it meant that prisons were not needed.
Saxon slave-owners often gave their slaves freedom as a reward for good service, as a gift. Although it wasn't called slavery, transportation to the eastern seabord colonies was used for criminals as soon as they were founded - so we've used our elastic-conscience gene to accommodate these little awkwardnesses.......
But I really am intrigued to find out what people think defines the English, and am very annoyed at the concept of national identity being hijacked by racists.
Perhaps that's why the Tolkien fantasy becomes attractive? Because it promotes values that can be identified with - even Gollum gets a back-story that you can empathise with.
Just as an illustration of identity and values, I once worked with a fantastic Arab bloke, and if I'd had a bad time with the kids not sleeping he would say supportively, 'Sell them. Buy something you like'.....he was being funny but.......

[jake-the-peg]

Slavery was slavery

Yes the Normans had serfdom but killing a serf was a crime killing your slave was not.

the ring quest would have been somewhat more contrversial if Samwise had been Frodo's slave don't you think - even if had not been in the colonial sense

[mike11111]

Harold Hardrada, Harold Godwinson, Harold Wilson; we never did do terribly well under the Harolds, did we? (deliberately missed out Harold MacMiIllan 'cos I'm a closet Tory)

[Mosaic]

jake, legally you could kill a slave, but in christianised england it gained the killer damnation in the eyes of the church, whereas freeing a slave took years off your time in purgatory.
Anyone, please feel free to have the last word, but I've enjoyed this hugely and I feel it's nearing its end. thank you all for intelligent and stimulating contributions, even Toryboy -oops Mike....