ChatterBank2 mins ago
Rape
11 Answers
In the previous thread, SP1814 stated the following:
When a woman claims to have been raped, I automatically assume she's telling the truth, because the number of false allegations compared to the number of real rapes is tiny.
I find this an interesting statement since rape is one of the most difficult things to prove.
Purely from statistics, less than 10% of cases that are reported result in a conviction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7496013.stm) so purely from a statistical point of view it is more likely that a woman is lying when she cries rape.
And of course there are (according to research) a lot of cases that aren't reported http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6314445.st m
But and it is a big but, as I mentioned, rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove - and there will be a percentage of men (maybe even on a jury) that will think that since the girl was out drinking and wearing revealing clothing that she 'didn't deserve it, but.......' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7275588.stm)
Some politician made ment
So, to the questions:
1) when a local newspaper reports that someone alleges that she has been raped, do you automatically feel that she is telling the truth or that she is making it up?
2) What can be done to encourage women to report rape crimes and to secure more convictions (if of course you do believe that in the majority of cases the woman is telling the truth)
When a woman claims to have been raped, I automatically assume she's telling the truth, because the number of false allegations compared to the number of real rapes is tiny.
I find this an interesting statement since rape is one of the most difficult things to prove.
Purely from statistics, less than 10% of cases that are reported result in a conviction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7496013.stm) so purely from a statistical point of view it is more likely that a woman is lying when she cries rape.
And of course there are (according to research) a lot of cases that aren't reported http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6314445.st m
But and it is a big but, as I mentioned, rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove - and there will be a percentage of men (maybe even on a jury) that will think that since the girl was out drinking and wearing revealing clothing that she 'didn't deserve it, but.......' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7275588.stm)
Some politician made ment
So, to the questions:
1) when a local newspaper reports that someone alleges that she has been raped, do you automatically feel that she is telling the truth or that she is making it up?
2) What can be done to encourage women to report rape crimes and to secure more convictions (if of course you do believe that in the majority of cases the woman is telling the truth)
Answers
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I do believe that the majority of women who report rape are telling the truth.
Sadly, our society is still sifficiently purient as to think - even not out loud which would not be tolerated - that a woman must have been partly responsible for the circumstances that lead up to her attack.
One way to break this vicious circle would be to educate people to separate the notion of rape from sex.
To some, rape is simply violent intercrourse. It's not, it's robbery with violence, and society should be made to understand that difference.
When women are assured of proper treatment, courtesy and respect and the gentle response that this crime justifies, together with a presumption of innocence in a crime in which they are the victim not the villain, then reports of rape will increase, and exponentially, so will the convicition rate.
But let's not hold our breath shall we? So far we haven't managed to convice people not to drink and drive, so this concept seems a depressingly long way off.
Sadly, our society is still sifficiently purient as to think - even not out loud which would not be tolerated - that a woman must have been partly responsible for the circumstances that lead up to her attack.
One way to break this vicious circle would be to educate people to separate the notion of rape from sex.
To some, rape is simply violent intercrourse. It's not, it's robbery with violence, and society should be made to understand that difference.
When women are assured of proper treatment, courtesy and respect and the gentle response that this crime justifies, together with a presumption of innocence in a crime in which they are the victim not the villain, then reports of rape will increase, and exponentially, so will the convicition rate.
But let's not hold our breath shall we? So far we haven't managed to convice people not to drink and drive, so this concept seems a depressingly long way off.
andy-hughes
Well put.
In answer to OEV, when I read a story of a rape, I default to believing the victim, not because I believe in the inherent decency in people, but because I would hope that anyone 'crying rape' would come to their senses before it went too far.
However, whenever I see distraught parents on the TV news appealing for information about their child's killer, about 40% of my mind is shouting "YOU DID IT, YOU DID IT".
Not proud of that, but I'm being honest...
Well put.
In answer to OEV, when I read a story of a rape, I default to believing the victim, not because I believe in the inherent decency in people, but because I would hope that anyone 'crying rape' would come to their senses before it went too far.
However, whenever I see distraught parents on the TV news appealing for information about their child's killer, about 40% of my mind is shouting "YOU DID IT, YOU DID IT".
Not proud of that, but I'm being honest...
I assume the woman is telling the truth, just the same as with any other crime: I assume someone reporting a theft or an assault is too. People almost always have better things to do than call in the police to tell them lies. A few do, of course, for whatever reason.
But rape tends to be a matter in which there are only two witnesses, and in which it's one person's word against the other's, and in which the vital matter is what was in the defendant's head (if he believed she was consenting, it isn't rape; what she believed doesn't matter). I don't know that there's any answer to this.
But rape tends to be a matter in which there are only two witnesses, and in which it's one person's word against the other's, and in which the vital matter is what was in the defendant's head (if he believed she was consenting, it isn't rape; what she believed doesn't matter). I don't know that there's any answer to this.
Rape is abhorrent and their is no excuse for the perpetrator BUT:
The girls aged 16-21 get ready to go to a select club where they know that Premier League footballers frequent. They put on mini-skirts, high heels, revealing blouses and are then invite3d into the "executive" area by the footballers.Champagne is readily available and consumed by both parties, followed by an invitation to the footballers hotel room. She later, sometime two or three days later, alleges that she has been raped, the footballer states that intercourse was consensual.
Who do you believe?
The girls aged 16-21 get ready to go to a select club where they know that Premier League footballers frequent. They put on mini-skirts, high heels, revealing blouses and are then invite3d into the "executive" area by the footballers.Champagne is readily available and consumed by both parties, followed by an invitation to the footballers hotel room. She later, sometime two or three days later, alleges that she has been raped, the footballer states that intercourse was consensual.
Who do you believe?
Rape is a heinous crime - right up there with murder and paedphillia, but in this country we have a presumption of innocence on the defendant and guilt needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
And there lies the rub - generally rape is the act of an individual on another individual and is therefore notoriously difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
So, what's the answer? Have a presumption of guilt and require the defendant to prove their innocence? Reduce the level of proof to that of a civil action?
I don't know the answer, but I do know that changing the level of proof/presumption of innocence is not it.
What about degrees of rape? I feel (and I suspect I'm going to get mullered for this) that what was consensual, often inebriated, right up until the moment of penetration when the woman decides no, she doesn't want sex, is a lesser crime than Rape (Capital R). Still a heinous crime, granted, but nevertheless a lesser crime.
I suspect the lack of conviction in rapes (small r) could be a factor in women not coming forward to report Rape (capital R).
Also, as we are on the subject, women who cry wolf should, no exception, be tried for perjury, wasting police time and jailed.
Finally, both accused and defendant should either be named or not named. I don't care which, but the present system is not fair.
And there lies the rub - generally rape is the act of an individual on another individual and is therefore notoriously difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
So, what's the answer? Have a presumption of guilt and require the defendant to prove their innocence? Reduce the level of proof to that of a civil action?
I don't know the answer, but I do know that changing the level of proof/presumption of innocence is not it.
What about degrees of rape? I feel (and I suspect I'm going to get mullered for this) that what was consensual, often inebriated, right up until the moment of penetration when the woman decides no, she doesn't want sex, is a lesser crime than Rape (Capital R). Still a heinous crime, granted, but nevertheless a lesser crime.
I suspect the lack of conviction in rapes (small r) could be a factor in women not coming forward to report Rape (capital R).
Also, as we are on the subject, women who cry wolf should, no exception, be tried for perjury, wasting police time and jailed.
Finally, both accused and defendant should either be named or not named. I don't care which, but the present system is not fair.
Rov1200 - I am not sure what you think I am salivating at - if you think I salivate at the thought of rape then you really are sick. I suggest that you need to talk to someone. If you think I salivate at the thought of inspecting a woman for bruising then (again) you really need help.
If you are that thick that you think that rape always includes bruising (as indicated by your previous post) then you really should try talking to people who have been raped or visiting a rape crisis centre.
Your ignorance and strange thoughts regarding salivating really are worrying.
If you are that thick that you think that rape always includes bruising (as indicated by your previous post) then you really should try talking to people who have been raped or visiting a rape crisis centre.
Your ignorance and strange thoughts regarding salivating really are worrying.
rov, your comments are really disgusting.
If it's even reported at all, a rape might not be reported instantly (or even particularly soon) after it's happened, for quite understandable reasons. Plus you assume that rape has been vaginal.
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In terms of question (1) - I do normally believe rape accusations. Even if people weren't telling the truth, it's too serious an accusation to not at least investigate.
In terms of answering question (2), while it's obviously important that we try to find one, I'm really not convinced there's a solution to the problem at all. It's not just a problem with female rape victims - male victims are just as (or even more) reluctant to come forward. Others have talked about stigma, but I'm not convinced that's the whole reason.
Rape is one of - in fact maybe the most - psychologically damaging crimes there is for a number of reasons (not least being that there is evidence indicating that victims may feel arousal or even reach orgasm during the attack), plus violation and maybe guilt etc... I really don't think there's a way you can get around that - it's too reliant on how the individual responds to that level of trauma.
Rape's also arguably a very difficult crime to prevent - again, the reasons it happens are quite psychological, and impossible to spot or prevent before they manifest.
If it's even reported at all, a rape might not be reported instantly (or even particularly soon) after it's happened, for quite understandable reasons. Plus you assume that rape has been vaginal.
-------
In terms of question (1) - I do normally believe rape accusations. Even if people weren't telling the truth, it's too serious an accusation to not at least investigate.
In terms of answering question (2), while it's obviously important that we try to find one, I'm really not convinced there's a solution to the problem at all. It's not just a problem with female rape victims - male victims are just as (or even more) reluctant to come forward. Others have talked about stigma, but I'm not convinced that's the whole reason.
Rape is one of - in fact maybe the most - psychologically damaging crimes there is for a number of reasons (not least being that there is evidence indicating that victims may feel arousal or even reach orgasm during the attack), plus violation and maybe guilt etc... I really don't think there's a way you can get around that - it's too reliant on how the individual responds to that level of trauma.
Rape's also arguably a very difficult crime to prevent - again, the reasons it happens are quite psychological, and impossible to spot or prevent before they manifest.
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