forgery

[eyeless666]

Hi i was just wondering if anyone can help me.
Last year my mother reported my father for fraud he forged her signature on a loan form for the sum of �10,000 secured on the family home ,my mother and father had separated when he had done this and he had lft the family home
Now when she contacted police she was told there was nothing that they could do it was down to the loan company to sort the matter out and then she was given a log number for her solicitor.
I have moved back into the family home to help pay the mortgage and i am now paying the loan as my mother can't afford to.
It would seem that my father has got away with this crime ,i have spoken to a number of solicitors who all have said that they are very surprised that the police have took a back seat and done nothing as what he has done is fraud and fraud is a criminal offence thus the police should of taken action .
What i would like to know is why no action has been taken against my father as he has clearly broken the law
and i'm sorry but fraud is fraud regardless if your married or not he forged her signatures on legal documents to obtain a large sum of money the two witnesses who all so signed the form for my father all so broke the law as they signed the document to say that they both witnessed my mother and father signing the form which they did not as my mother did not put her signature on the document.
both my self and my sister signed it aswell as he had conned us both into doing so,he turned up when we had just got in from picking our children up from school so as you can imagin we were very busy ,he handed us the part we needed to sign along with a lot of other paper work around it he told us briefly that what we were signing was just to say that if they defolt on the mortgage we had to leave and we had no reason to think he was going to do what he did

[stonekicker]

why are you paying the loan????? if it is fraudulent, as you say, the loan company are getting their money and have no reason to pursue your father, do they? stop paying the loan as the longer you do so, the weaker the case for accusing your father will be - by paying the loan you are kind of accepting some responsibility fir it. the company will get chuffed off and chase your dad for it. also chase the police - if you let them get away with doing nowt, they will do...

[eyeless666]

we did this and then we were told that due to the fact that my dad secured it on the house if he dint pay it we would or we would lose our home .
EPF have done nothing to resolve the matter and seem only interested in getting their money they have made no effort to get my dad for fraud even thogh when he did a runner twice i hired a company to locate him and then passed the information onto them but they did nothing

[Barmaid]

Is your family home in the joint names of your mother and father? That is important.

There is a huge body of case law on this type of thing (it happens more than you can imagine). I would be inclined to take legal advice.

At law because your mother did not sign the document, the loan cannot be secured on the property so they will not be successful in possession proceedings. Unfortunately, unless you get legal advice, if you stop paying the loan, this is exactly what they will do and then you have to defend it on this basis. They won't care, they just want their money. You need someone with balls to go in and kick them quite hard (since your mother theoretically has a claim for negligence against them).

[eyeless666]

hi :) yes the mortgage in both names .i sent an email to the HSBC as EPF are conected to them and this is what they sent back
Thank you for your recent e-mail. Please be advised that at HSBC the loan application process is very secure as we have top of the line measures put in place to prevent any form of identity theft and we also follow the necessary verification process. May I request you to contact EPF for further assistance in this regard.

i have also contacted tons of solicitors online to see what they thought and one mentioned the that they have not followed the rules of Royal Bank of Scotland v Etridge [2002].and that Really they are not suppose to give loans of this nature withou insisting that the wife in the party has received legal advice. my mother was never contacted by EPF untill my dad missed payments.
My mum has a solicitor for all the good she is and she has said more or less the same ,because the house is in joint names it doesnt matter the fact that my dad forged my mums signature but i just cant believe that in this day and age this can happen

[Barmaid]

Etridge and the line of cases thereafter is to what I was referring in my earlier post. I think your solicitor should be encouraged to seek the advice of Counsel since your mother can rely on the doctrine of "non est factum" - ie "not my document" in order to prevent an order for sale being granted. Whatever the bank may say in their, frankly, anodyne email, their "verification" procedures have either not been followed or are not tight enough or your father was canny enough to somehow hoodwink them.

I accept what you say about the house being in joint names, but ultimately, your mother is standing security for a loan about which she knew nothing. The law will not allow this to happen. Frankly, I'd kick up a bit of a fight and make the loan co pursue your father. AND if the loan co think you are going to stand your ground and fight and not capitulate to their bullying tactics, you may well find the police WILL be involved.

Either instruct a more bullish litigator or get counsel's advice (that will probably cost you about �4-500).

[eyeless666]

see everywhere i have looked the bottom line is my dad should be done for commiting fraud,both myself and mother are now on benefit so paying a huge sum of money is out of the question as saving went on an investigator to track my dad down .
what i need to know is should my mother of been contacted before the loan agreement was complete

[eyeless666]

non est factum( the signature on the contract was signed by mistake, without knowledge of its meaning, but was not done so negligently)

my mum never signed the loan agreement so this would not come in to play.

[themas]

1. Clearly the police ought to be interested and do something, but that would take some time and meanwhile you would still have the problem of having to pay the loan when you shouldn't have to. However, it would probably be a good idea to make another attempt to get them to become involved, & if they still won't to make a formal complaint to the Chief Constable or IPCC. But I would not leave it just to them.

2. It seems you need some competent legal advice, and haven't yet had any - apart from Barmaid's comments. You could ask the Law Society to recommend solicitors who are experienced and competent in this area of law. Alternatively, do you or your mother have legal expenses cover with your house buildings or contents policy? If so, it might cover this type of thing & you should raise it with your insurer. You then wouldn't have to pay for the legal work.

3. If you do have to pay, you could perhaps raise the money by stopping paying the loan. Ultimately, if you win the case - or the lender backs down when the reality of the situation dawns on them - you should get your legal costs back - & maybe everything that has been paid on the loan.

4. Do you know who the people are who witnessed the fraudulent signature? If so, are they prepared to make a statement confirming what actually happened? This could be vital evidence & as much info as possible about it should be given to the solicitor.

5. I don't understand why you & your sister signed the document. If the house does not have your names on the deeds then this seems to have been unnecessary, unless you were living in the house at the time (when you might have been asked to sign to prevent you objecting if repossession became necessary). But you say you have now moved back in, which seems to imply you weren't living there.

[eyeless666]

yes at the time my mum and dad got the mortgage both myself and my sister were living back with them ,then we both moved out and when my parents were going through a rough patch i moved back but i had only been gone a month or so.
Then my dad left to stay in the hotel he was working at while the owners were away he came round with the papers(loan form) saying that we needed to sign it so we had no rights staying in the house if they default on the mortgage and like i said ihad no reason to think that what i was signing was anything else very stupid on my part as i should of read it frst :(
the two witnesses who also signed it yes we do no them well one of them is my brothers partner and we did explain the situation to her but my brother stood his ground and told her to say nothing as they were having their 1st child and i guess he wanted to keep her out of any upcomming bother the second witness worked at the same hotel as my dad and it seemed the place was empty so that was out the window

[lemonsorbet]

You say you initially went to the police to report the fraud. I would go back down this route, and if they won't pick it up again, make a formal complaint.

I would then get a copy of the document from the loan company, to show that the signature is fake.

I would also WRITE (recorded delivery) to someone important at the loan company, and explain the situation to them, and demand a full investigation on how their fraud policies and basic checks weren't carried out.

One of these things will hopefully get the case moving.