Can Employers Insist On Paying For Certain Days Annual Leave.

[RATTER15]

Just a curiosity really?

I work 4 or more days a week every week, I then book AL. for 3 weeks. my employes are saying that I will be paid for the full 21 days and those 21 days will be deducted from my holiday entitlement, even though only 12 of those days were actually working days.

can they legally do that?

In our contract it only mentions the amount of AL we are entitled to and how much notice we must give etc.

[Peter Pedant]

Our contract made it clear that

mon to wed would be three days
and mon to fri would be a week

[RATTER15]

Peter, we work all days with no set days off, we also work alternate days at weekends. we have different days off during the week and not usually consecutive days off. so not so simple.

[factor-fiction]

Ratter- I think buildersmate's post is saying your employer clearly is wrong here, unless there has been some misunderstanding somewhere along the line between you and your employer, which I doubt.
If the approach means you are actually getting less than the statutory minimum number of holidays then that is a serious matter.
Someone needs to take this up with the company or go to somewhere like ACAS
Thank you to buildersmate for confirming what I thought about HMRC's services.

[Peter Pedant]

yeah I think you can ask them to clarify

we were told 4 weeks and that is 20 working days....

[RATTER15]

we were told 4 weeks and that is 20 working days... I think they are taking the Pee, because we cannot clarify what is our working days, we get our new rota 1 month in advance and we need to book our AL one month in advance. We cant win!

[factor-fiction]

What is your annual holiday entitlement please Ratter?

[buildersmate]

Right. Yes, you can win and we will help you. So 4 days per week contracted, because each day is 7 hours. Please confirm you agree.

Next we need to establish how many days holiday per year a full timer gets. It must be at least 20 plus public holidays or 28 including public holidays.

Let's assume 20 plus BHs. You work 4/5ths of a normal week so your holiday must be at least 22.4 days per year. Can't remember whether legally this can be rounded down to 22 days.

You are thus contracted to work 52 times 4 equals 208 days per week less 22 days holiday, or 186 days per year. No ifs or buts.

[buildersmate]

208 days per year in last sentence, obviously.

[RATTER15]

I am contracted to work 28 hours a week and we are entitled to 28 days a year Holiday, that includes bank holidays. If we work a bank holiday we get a day off in lieu.

[RATTER15]

Yes basically 4 days a week, but the contact states 28 hours. I usually work 5 or 6 days a week.

[Svejk]

no wonder people are on zero hours contracts, etc. today.

[Ellipsis]

Are you sure you get 28 days holiday pa (including Bank Holidays) for working 28 hours a week? That's quite generous ...

Assuming that's correct, going back to my previous example and putting the correct numbers in ...

* You work 4 days per week, so 4x52=208 days per year.
* Your holiday entitlement is 28 days per year
* Therefore, assuming no time off sick and no overtime, the number of days on which you would present yourself for work in order to receive your full salary should be 208-28=180 days.
* If you work more days than that then you're possibly entitled to more pay. It depends on your contract and on the circumstances in which you work more.

I think they are probably entitled to pay you for every day you take off, then ask that you take the whole lot out of your holiday allowance. I'd be very surprised if they didn't know their own rules. But, somewhere along the line, this has to catch up with them and you. There are only 180 days per year that you have to turn up for work. If they force more holidays on you now, then sometime later this year (assuming you haven't already done it earlier this year) you are going to need to turn up more than four days per week to make up for those missing days.

[buildersmate]

Yes, Slips, my next question too.

Sounds like this employer of Rather doesn't have a clue.

Impressed by your analysis yesterday.

[buildersmate]

Ratter, sport about the spell check messing with text.

My view is we are going to have to help you convince your employer that you ate contracted to work a number of days per year. Then this red herring about whether you were rostered on or off pales into an irrelevance.

[RATTER15]

I work overtime by choice. I don't understand why this would make any difference. My amount of holiday is not in question. My only concern is as stated above. Can my employers just take my normal days off as annual leave,just because they want to?

[THECORBYLOON]

I suggest you 'phone ACAS for advice and if it confirms what we all think, get them to confirm it in an e-mail and show it to your employer.

[factor-fiction]

I agree with everything Ellipsis and buildersmate have said (after translating the latter's spellchecker changes).

I did wonder if there is something that we are missing here. 28 days of holiday does seem quite generous for working 4 days a week so I wondered whether they have factored in the weekends somehow by saying you get 4 weeks (rather than 28 days holiday). However that would take you below the statutory minimum of 22.4 so it can't be right. It also wouldn't work if someone took all their holidays on just Mondays for example.

So my conclusion is that the employer does seem to have it wrong based on what you say

[buildersmate]

Oh gawd, overtime worked as well. You don't get extra holiday entitlement for extras worked over contract as overtime, but it makes my cunning plan of getting you to count the total number of days worked in the year harder to quantify.

The amount of holiday you are entitled to under your contract may not be under question, but by counting off days as part of your holiday entitlement, you aren't getting it all. It's as daft as someone pointed out yesterday. Say a regular Monday to Friday worker asks for a Monday off, Employer says that's three days off your leave entitlement, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

Do you understand why I am saying to you that you and your employer needs to count the total number of days you have worked in the year, when establishing that you've had the right amount of holiday?

[boxtops]

Ratter, are you happy to contact ACAS? They are very helpful, and their advice is completely free.

[RATTER15]

I think I will phone ACAS. I don't understand what my holiday entitlement or the overtime I work has any bearing on my question. I struggle with understand certain things I know, I apologise if I am not getting it. It is most likely an issue of mine. I thank you all for your great help and advice.