Planning Permission For Change Of Use From Pub To Residential Houses, Do You Have To Prove To The Planning Dept That You Have Tried To Sell The Pub As A Going Concern Before You Apply For Change Of Use?

[Lesleytyler63]

I'm trying to find online the rules and regulations for this but can't find any information.

[EDDIE51]

No unless the pub is listed as an 'Asset of community value' you just apply. People have the chance to object when the change of use is published.

[gangesboy]

There are quite a few sites offering advice
Here is one of them
http://www.progressiveproperty.co.uk/blog/converting-pubs-residential-definitive-guide/

[Lesleytyler63]

We applied for a Asset but it was declined, apparently the nominee of a asset has no right of appeal!

[Lesleytyler63]

I have checked out that link although it says nothing about the necessity to advertise a pub for sale as a going concern before you submit planning permission for change of use

[gangesboy]

On this site it states that you have to prove that the business is unprofitable and/or you have tried to sell it. I can only suggest that you talk to your local planning department to clarify the requirements
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2933354/Public-houses-closing-converting-pub-home-no-easy-task.html

[jackthehat]

We had a similar question here a while ago....

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Law/Question1497045.html

It might be worth reading through the associated threads or trying to catch Littlesquidge for advice/information.

[cassa333]

Not to appear uncareing or anything but I have never understood the sudden desire to 'save' a business (pub or otherwise) after it has become unprofitable.

Although to be fare a lot of pubs sit on a larger than average land base so the land value could be an inducement to sell rather than keep as a business.

In the cases of pubs and places like that I have always said that the people wanting to save it should put their money where their mouth is and buy it. Get a conglomerate of local people together and get a loan and run it yourselves.

Business owners should have the right to keep or sell or dispose of a business as they see fit and not be blackmailed. But that is just my opinion though so probably not worth much.

[Lesleytyler63]

We already have the money to buy and keep the pub as a community asset. The problem is the owner Hawthorn Leisure haven't tried to sell as a pub and have shut it and put in for planning permission to build houses on the plot.

A pub doesn't have to be profit making, it needs to provide its owner with a decent wage for living.

[jackthehat]

Ah.....
So, it's the same pub?
Why didn't you say so?

[retroactive]

you can read about it here

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/yourtown/abingdon/14662814.Campaigners_persist_with_pledge_to_save_The_Plough_after__quot_shocking_quot__council_rejection/

[EDDIE51]

Two highly profitable pubs near me have been sold and converted to houses in the last year.
No one said anything about them having to be unprofitable. The last one had a guest house as well that was always fully booked for B & B. But the offer of £4.5 million for it as a building plot was too much for the owners to refuse.
Now there are 5 houses and a block of 8 flats on the old pub site. The 3 owners pocketed £1.5 million each so they will never have to work again!

[EDDIE51]

I knew the owners of both the pubs in my town that were sold for housing and they definitely had no problem getting planning permission. In both cases the property company that was buying them for development did the planning applications. They are not going to risk being told that they can not go ahead with the development.
As the application for the listing as an 'asset of community value' was refused there will be no objection to the planning permission.
Sorry I sympathise but you are on a loser here. Your only hope is to match or better the offer price for the housing development.

[New Judge]

“A pub doesn't have to be profit making, it needs to provide its owner with a decent wage for living.”

Really? Is that all?

Leaving aside current account costs such as staff pay, rent, business rates, electricity, gas, water etc., how, if it does not turn a profit, does it acquire funds for (among many other things) new carpets, furniture, redecorating, new kitchen equipment, cellar equipment, all of which need to be provided from time to time.

A number of groups take over their local pubs as ACVs only to discover soon afterwards the reason why the pub failed. It takes more than some ideological dream to run your local and if you are seriously thinking of running a pub you need to have a vision beyond it making the owner a “decent wage for living”.

[Lesleytyler63]

“A pub doesn't have to be profit making, it needs to provide its owner with a decent Living"

That is the directive of the government. Obviously the upkeep of the pub would fall within a decent wage.

[Lesleytyler63]

A community pub is valuable to its community and should be protected from anyone wanting to make a huge profit from it. Once a pub closes that's it, you won't ever get it back.

In our village at the moment, people have no where to go to meet with other people from the village. Friendships will be lost! A village should be a community although our village will soon become a village is strangers!

There are 600+ new houses being built in our village and no new amenities planned.

Villages need protection from greedy developers.

[retroactive]

The fact that you can't seem to understand the difference between a landlords 'wage' and a businesses 'Profit' seems to indicate you need to improve your knowledge of running a business.

People need housing even if that means some quaint exclusive villages have to endure 'incomers'

[Lesleytyler63]

Thought this was Answerbank not #trollgiveitya-all!!

[Barmaid]

You are not being trolled, Lesleytyler. I can however see that point that is made about business acumen. Also, to be fair, you did invite a difference of opinion in response to your "Villages need protecting from greedy developers".

I can appreciate that you feel very strongly about this, but no one is trolling you. Perhaps it might be time to get some specialist legal advice since this appears to be quite a specialist thing. If you have some funding it may well be worthwhile seeking the advice of experienced Planning Counsel on a direct access basis.

[New Judge]

No you are not being “trolled”, Lesley. You have asked for specific advice but do not seem to have thought through the problem before asking about specifics. That is why people are suggesting you set aside your ideology before sallying forth, and instead think about the practical problems.

Nobody needs to tell me about the demise of pubs. As a long time (40yrs plus) member of CAMRA I'm well aware of the scale of pub closures across the land. I'm also aware of the reasons why many of them close. The fact is that for various reasons many pubs - especially those in rural locations - are not viable. They fail to make the very thing you believe they don’t need to – a profit. Not the sort of excessive profits that you mention, but any profit at all. Distasteful as it may seem, businesses need to make a profit. If they don’t, unless they have a rich benefactor, they go to the wall.

Whilst it is laudable to want to keep your village pub going you may find that, even if it declared an ACV, it is simply not possible to do so. You will find it extremely expensive to keep a place going simply so that you have somewhere to meet over half of lager. The inevitable will then happen. The premises will be sold and no doubt converted to residential use in some way.