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Abh Advice Please...
40 Answers
Hello,
I just want some advice please.
I have been arrested for ABH for breaking someone’s nose. We were both drunk but the other person is saying I punched them for no reason. There are a few witnessess that are saying I started it and hit the other person first but they were with them and are friends with the other person so surely they are not independent witnesses? What evidence would the police and cps need to proceed with a charge for ABH? Could they go just on statements from the other person and their friends?
If found guilty after trial at court what are the likely outcomes?
I have had a warning for assault that I received over 6 years ago and convicted of being drunk and disorderly 3 years ago. I’m also high up in a business and in a position I have worked very hard to achieve so do not want to lose this.
I just want some advice please.
I have been arrested for ABH for breaking someone’s nose. We were both drunk but the other person is saying I punched them for no reason. There are a few witnessess that are saying I started it and hit the other person first but they were with them and are friends with the other person so surely they are not independent witnesses? What evidence would the police and cps need to proceed with a charge for ABH? Could they go just on statements from the other person and their friends?
If found guilty after trial at court what are the likely outcomes?
I have had a warning for assault that I received over 6 years ago and convicted of being drunk and disorderly 3 years ago. I’m also high up in a business and in a position I have worked very hard to achieve so do not want to lose this.
Answers
From what you've written, it seems evident that a court would be convinced that you punched the other guy and broke his nose. Who started the fight is then largely irrelevant, as to successfully defend your actions as 'self defence' would require you to show that you were using the absolute minimum force necessary to ward off an attack. (In many cases the only...
18:02 Wed 31st Jan 2018
From what you've written, it seems evident that a court would be convinced that you punched the other guy and broke his nose. Who started the fight is then largely irrelevant, as to successfully defend your actions as 'self defence' would require you to show that you were using the absolute minimum force necessary to ward off an attack. (In many cases the only valid 'self defence' is to turn and run. If you genuinely can't do that because, say, an aggressor is in your path then the only 'self defence' open to you is to simply push him out of the way and then run. It's only if that option is also blocked that you have the right to strike a blow and, once again, you must use only the minimum force necessary. I doubt that you could convince a court that you only acted because you had no other alternative).
You should obviously ask your solicitor (who will have more detailed information than we have) about the best way forwards but, as I see it, pleading 'not guilty' would be counter-productive, in that you'd almost certainly be found guilty anyway and simply end up with a more severe sentence.
There seems to be nothing in what you've written to suggest that your case could end up before the Crown court (unless, of course, you exercise your right to demand trial by jury), so it's the sentencing guidelines for magistrates which you need to look at:
https:/
(See pages 177 to180)
You'll see that the magistrates (or District Judge, as appropriate) will have to decide whether the offence falls into Category 1, 2 or 3. I can't see anything in your post which suggests that 'culpability' could fall into the 'higher' section and, as a broken nose is a relatively minor injury, it seems unlikely that 'harm' would be regarded as 'higher' either. If the magistrates agree with me then it's a Category 3 offence, for which you CAN'T be sent to prison.
Even if the offence was seen as within Category 2 (where the 'starting point' sentence is 6 months imprisonment) I suspect that the magistrates could find reasons to push the sentencing towards the lower end of the available range (but possibly only if you've pleaded guilty and displayed remorse), so once again a custodial sentence would seem to be unlikely. Even if such a sentence was actually passed there would be a fairly good chance of it being suspended.
My best bet is that you'll end up with a community order.
You should obviously ask your solicitor (who will have more detailed information than we have) about the best way forwards but, as I see it, pleading 'not guilty' would be counter-productive, in that you'd almost certainly be found guilty anyway and simply end up with a more severe sentence.
There seems to be nothing in what you've written to suggest that your case could end up before the Crown court (unless, of course, you exercise your right to demand trial by jury), so it's the sentencing guidelines for magistrates which you need to look at:
https:/
(See pages 177 to180)
You'll see that the magistrates (or District Judge, as appropriate) will have to decide whether the offence falls into Category 1, 2 or 3. I can't see anything in your post which suggests that 'culpability' could fall into the 'higher' section and, as a broken nose is a relatively minor injury, it seems unlikely that 'harm' would be regarded as 'higher' either. If the magistrates agree with me then it's a Category 3 offence, for which you CAN'T be sent to prison.
Even if the offence was seen as within Category 2 (where the 'starting point' sentence is 6 months imprisonment) I suspect that the magistrates could find reasons to push the sentencing towards the lower end of the available range (but possibly only if you've pleaded guilty and displayed remorse), so once again a custodial sentence would seem to be unlikely. Even if such a sentence was actually passed there would be a fairly good chance of it being suspended.
My best bet is that you'll end up with a community order.
Thanks for the reply both of you. I wasn’t saying being drunk was a mitigating factor I’m just giving the context of what happened. It was just a drunken fight that wasn’t started by me. The other person came off worse and now I have been arrested for ABH. I’m just worried about going to prison for something that I wish never happened. I have a very good job and I don’t want to lose it over a fight I feel wasn’t my fault. I just wish I was never part of it.
Remember that an early Guilty plea automatically means a 3rd off any sentence. As you have been told, it is likely that a court will find you guilty any way. My advice is to plead guilty and tell the court how sorry you are. I would say that a guilty plea would be virtually certain to result in a non custodial sentence.
You really do need a solicitor. A solicitor can actually look at the evidence that the prosecution intend to use and then advise you on the best option.
You really do need a solicitor. A solicitor can actually look at the evidence that the prosecution intend to use and then advise you on the best option.
Buen //There seems to be nothing in what you've written to suggest that your case could end up before the Crown court//
EDDIE//I would say that a guilty plea would be virtually certain to result in a non custodial sentence//
Dont want to highjack Almonmilks post here but neither of those posts reflect my own experience. Back in 1997 I pleaded guilty to ABH and was referred to Crown Court (by the mags) where I recieved an 8 month prison sentence. I didnt even break anyones nose, just a few bruises.
EDDIE//I would say that a guilty plea would be virtually certain to result in a non custodial sentence//
Dont want to highjack Almonmilks post here but neither of those posts reflect my own experience. Back in 1997 I pleaded guilty to ABH and was referred to Crown Court (by the mags) where I recieved an 8 month prison sentence. I didnt even break anyones nose, just a few bruises.
AlmondMilk, please see a criminal solicitor. Whilst Buenchico gives (as always) excellent advice on potential sentencing NO ONE can advise you how to plead unless and until they have seen ALL the evidence against their client.
Eddie, you often give very good advice, but I'd steer clear from giving advice on a plea.
If I had a quid for every time a client said to me "the statements say" when in fact the statements do not, I'd not be bothering to get up in the mornings and letting the butler and the maids crack on.
Eddie, you often give very good advice, but I'd steer clear from giving advice on a plea.
If I had a quid for every time a client said to me "the statements say" when in fact the statements do not, I'd not be bothering to get up in the mornings and letting the butler and the maids crack on.
^^^ I can't argue with that, Barmaid.
I did write "You should obviously ask your solicitor (who will have more detailed information than we have) about the best way forwards . . . " but I was also keen to point out to AM that pleading guilty might well be the best option (depending, of course, upon the advice from his solicitor) as his post seemed to indicate that he'd already made his mind up to plead not guilty. (i.e. "If found guilty after trial at court . . .")
I did write "You should obviously ask your solicitor (who will have more detailed information than we have) about the best way forwards . . . " but I was also keen to point out to AM that pleading guilty might well be the best option (depending, of course, upon the advice from his solicitor) as his post seemed to indicate that he'd already made his mind up to plead not guilty. (i.e. "If found guilty after trial at court . . .")
I, too, wonder quite why EDDIE believes that he is in any way qualified to give legal advice, let alone advise on how to plead.
Buenchico knows exactly the places to Google for competent advice and Barmaid has spent years of study and is a practising Barrister and yet, and yet......EDDIE pops up regularly to alarm and misinform people.
Buenchico knows exactly the places to Google for competent advice and Barmaid has spent years of study and is a practising Barrister and yet, and yet......EDDIE pops up regularly to alarm and misinform people.
Barmaid, thanks, thought that I was going nuts for a min LOL.
I had a few minor convictions previously, similar to Almonmilk...a few drinking offences, possession of an offencive weapon etc. But the point is Almondmilk is been advised that he probably wont recieve a prison sentence when I recieved a prison sentence for less than braking a persons nose. And it was a sentence recieved at Crown court.
I had a few minor convictions previously, similar to Almonmilk...a few drinking offences, possession of an offencive weapon etc. But the point is Almondmilk is been advised that he probably wont recieve a prison sentence when I recieved a prison sentence for less than braking a persons nose. And it was a sentence recieved at Crown court.
Nailit:
Please see my Sentencing Council link above.
Magistrates CAN'T transfer an 'either way' case to the Crown Court UNLESS they believe that, should the defendant be convicted, their sentencing powers would be insufficient (or, if he's already been convicted in their court, that they then reach that same decision). For a single offence that would have to mean that the magistrates would need to of the opinion that a sentence exceeding 6 months imprisonment might be appropriate.
AM's description of events (which, of course, is all I've got to go on) seems to suggest that the magistrates will regard the matter as a Category 3 offence (as both 'culpability' and 'harm' seem to fit into the 'lower' classification), meaning that no custodial sentence can be passed. So (unless AM opts for trial by jury) the case CAN'T reach the Crown court.
Even if the magistrates see it as a Category 2 offence they'd need to view it as requiring a sentence above the 'starting point' of 6 months imprisonment, which again seems very unlikely to me.
Those guidelines only came into effect in 2011. Indeed, the Sentencing Council itself only dates back to 2010 (but with its predecessor, the Sentencing Guidelines Council, going back to 2003), so there were no similar guidelines in effect back in 1997.
Please see my Sentencing Council link above.
Magistrates CAN'T transfer an 'either way' case to the Crown Court UNLESS they believe that, should the defendant be convicted, their sentencing powers would be insufficient (or, if he's already been convicted in their court, that they then reach that same decision). For a single offence that would have to mean that the magistrates would need to of the opinion that a sentence exceeding 6 months imprisonment might be appropriate.
AM's description of events (which, of course, is all I've got to go on) seems to suggest that the magistrates will regard the matter as a Category 3 offence (as both 'culpability' and 'harm' seem to fit into the 'lower' classification), meaning that no custodial sentence can be passed. So (unless AM opts for trial by jury) the case CAN'T reach the Crown court.
Even if the magistrates see it as a Category 2 offence they'd need to view it as requiring a sentence above the 'starting point' of 6 months imprisonment, which again seems very unlikely to me.
Those guidelines only came into effect in 2011. Indeed, the Sentencing Council itself only dates back to 2010 (but with its predecessor, the Sentencing Guidelines Council, going back to 2003), so there were no similar guidelines in effect back in 1997.
I suspect the answer lies in your previous offences ,Nailit. You had a "few" one of which included possession of an offensive weapon. The OP has one conviction for D&D and one warning. Plus of course, yours was 20 years ago.
But also the precise facts of each offence will be taken into account. No one can say. Only a properly qualified lawyer in possession of all of the facts can give firm advice. Other than that the best that can be done is "guidelines". Chris has done the best he can with what info he has. Eddie really should take a more measured view rather than giving such "definitive" advice. No one can be "virtually certain" on anything. Any lawyer in possession of their senses and with all the facts would only ever give a "range" of possible sentences.
But also the precise facts of each offence will be taken into account. No one can say. Only a properly qualified lawyer in possession of all of the facts can give firm advice. Other than that the best that can be done is "guidelines". Chris has done the best he can with what info he has. Eddie really should take a more measured view rather than giving such "definitive" advice. No one can be "virtually certain" on anything. Any lawyer in possession of their senses and with all the facts would only ever give a "range" of possible sentences.
Buen and BM both, thanks
//Magistrates CAN'T transfer an 'either way' case to the Crown Court UNLESS they believe that, should the defendant be convicted, their sentencing powers would be insufficient//
I still fail to understand exactly WHAT constitutes *sufficient*..
How is this defined? I bruised somebody but someone else brakes a nose and thats different?
I go to prison for a few bruises but someone else gets another sentence for braking someones nose???
Im struggling to understand how this works.
//Magistrates CAN'T transfer an 'either way' case to the Crown Court UNLESS they believe that, should the defendant be convicted, their sentencing powers would be insufficient//
I still fail to understand exactly WHAT constitutes *sufficient*..
How is this defined? I bruised somebody but someone else brakes a nose and thats different?
I go to prison for a few bruises but someone else gets another sentence for braking someones nose???
Im struggling to understand how this works.
Thank you all for your advice. I would always seek advice from my solicitor. It is just upsetting that I may have to plead guilty to something I did not start. I understand violence is never the answer but it wasn’t how they are making out and now I have been arrested for something I could potentially go to prison for. I just don’t understand why the police are looking at it like this when I know the other person started it. Because they have had the worse injury and reported it I am the one being arrested. With regards to my previous conviction and warning do you believe this could be a aggravating factor considering how long ago they were? The other person was also drunk so would this not go in my favour? Also all the witnesses are friends with the other person. My main concern is going to prison as I will lose my job and my livelyhood. I will lose everything because of someone else’s decision to start a fight with me. I know you can’t tell me what exactly will happen I just wanted some possible likely scenarios.
I think we have possibly gone as far as we can with potential scenarios AM.
The fact that the other witnesses are friends with the victim is neither here nor there - unless defence counsel can pick holes in their story.
Best now seek the advice of your solicitor. The WORST thing you can do is try and seek advice from random strangers who have NOT seen the evidence. Trust me, I used to do this for a living. Best of luck.
The fact that the other witnesses are friends with the victim is neither here nor there - unless defence counsel can pick holes in their story.
Best now seek the advice of your solicitor. The WORST thing you can do is try and seek advice from random strangers who have NOT seen the evidence. Trust me, I used to do this for a living. Best of luck.
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