Society & Culture0 min ago
Police Caution and working in the NHS (ABH)
Hey people,
Just like to say that other threads on Police cautions have influenced me trying to fight my girl friends caution.
So any advice would be hugely appreciated. Smile
A little background:
My girlfriend received a caution for ABH in October 2006. She had been out to celebrate her birthday with friends, had hardly drank and was in a club when the incident occurred.
Whilst consoling a friend in a toilet cubicle, a bouncer entered accused the pair of doing drugs and physically threw my girlfriend out of the club - gracefully throwing her down the stairs in the process.
Trying to get her coat before she left, the same bouncer grabbed her round the upper body and neck, so she bit him.
The police were called, the bouncer came out with a bandage on and she was arrested. Now she had no previous record and had recently started working towards her degree in mental health nursing. She was worried it would effect the course and her career but the police told her it wouldn't, well it has...
A few weeks ago after almost 2 years of the degree complete, she has been asked to leave university. With a 2:1/1st average and glowing reports from her NHS placements, she is now left in the cold.
The university fought her case and appealed that the NHS Primary Care Trust (PCT) were harsh being that she was a great student and the people in industry she had worked for had always been so positive about her ability as a nurse.
Now, there are people on the same course who have similar cautions or convictions and still remain on the course, as the PCT aren't aware of such things as the university apply for the CRBs when students apply for the course, but don't tell the PCTs were the students do 50% of the course.
It only came to light when she applied for a part time job in the PCT to supplement her measly �140 a month NHS
Just like to say that other threads on Police cautions have influenced me trying to fight my girl friends caution.
So any advice would be hugely appreciated. Smile
A little background:
My girlfriend received a caution for ABH in October 2006. She had been out to celebrate her birthday with friends, had hardly drank and was in a club when the incident occurred.
Whilst consoling a friend in a toilet cubicle, a bouncer entered accused the pair of doing drugs and physically threw my girlfriend out of the club - gracefully throwing her down the stairs in the process.
Trying to get her coat before she left, the same bouncer grabbed her round the upper body and neck, so she bit him.
The police were called, the bouncer came out with a bandage on and she was arrested. Now she had no previous record and had recently started working towards her degree in mental health nursing. She was worried it would effect the course and her career but the police told her it wouldn't, well it has...
A few weeks ago after almost 2 years of the degree complete, she has been asked to leave university. With a 2:1/1st average and glowing reports from her NHS placements, she is now left in the cold.
The university fought her case and appealed that the NHS Primary Care Trust (PCT) were harsh being that she was a great student and the people in industry she had worked for had always been so positive about her ability as a nurse.
Now, there are people on the same course who have similar cautions or convictions and still remain on the course, as the PCT aren't aware of such things as the university apply for the CRBs when students apply for the course, but don't tell the PCTs were the students do 50% of the course.
It only came to light when she applied for a part time job in the PCT to supplement her measly �140 a month NHS
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well good luck with that. TBH she did bite him, and accept her guilt by accepting a caution, i cant see how you could possibly dispute it. even if she had waited till she had finished her degree, she would then have been left in a position of not being able to get a job in nursing due to a previos caution for violence (especially in mental health nursing)
it is really ****** for her, but if she'd have just left without fuss when asked to by the bouncer i would guess she wouldn't have to be forcibly ejected
it is really ****** for her, but if she'd have just left without fuss when asked to by the bouncer i would guess she wouldn't have to be forcibly ejected
Cheers guys for commenting so quickly. :)
She did bite him but what we're trying to appeal is that police told her it wouldn't ever effect the job of her choice, which was a lie.
She told them it was mental health nursing and raised the issue that she might lose her place at uni and they still rushed through the caution.
I've read that when issuing a caution they should show the person the list of jobs that it would effect it.
The deal is that she wouldn't have accepted the caution if it was going to effect her job. The police wanted to tick boxes, get the caution and move on.
If she would have gone to court she wouldn't have been convicted because of her glowing character references and the size of her and the size of him. Also, we'd have taken pictures of her arms, legs and body which were heavily brusied from the incident.
Yes, she was in the wrong but so was the bouncer, she was black and blue and the bouncer didn't exercise any common sense and I don't think the Police did either.
She did bite him but what we're trying to appeal is that police told her it wouldn't ever effect the job of her choice, which was a lie.
She told them it was mental health nursing and raised the issue that she might lose her place at uni and they still rushed through the caution.
I've read that when issuing a caution they should show the person the list of jobs that it would effect it.
The deal is that she wouldn't have accepted the caution if it was going to effect her job. The police wanted to tick boxes, get the caution and move on.
If she would have gone to court she wouldn't have been convicted because of her glowing character references and the size of her and the size of him. Also, we'd have taken pictures of her arms, legs and body which were heavily brusied from the incident.
Yes, she was in the wrong but so was the bouncer, she was black and blue and the bouncer didn't exercise any common sense and I don't think the Police did either.
i dont understand how a police officer is meant to know which jobs she can and cant apply for. That may be a very long list.
Did she just take his word for it and accept guilt? did she not think to check for herself before embarking on a medfical course. I was ABH. not a parking offence.
Its just a shame shes wasted the years of study only to find out now.
Did she just take his word for it and accept guilt? did she not think to check for herself before embarking on a medfical course. I was ABH. not a parking offence.
Its just a shame shes wasted the years of study only to find out now.
Hey Red CRX,
Thanks for the reply.
Basically officially the Police should provide a person being cautioned with Annex A and B of a certain Act. (Can't think what it is but I'm right)
This details the jobs that would be affected by a caution, those lists were never shown and she mentioned numerous times the job she was working towards.
This is all done at the station and the police aren't expected to remember them all, they just need to provide the paper work.
She was already at University when the incident happened and the Uni were hopeful that it wouldn't come to this, but the long drawn out procedure has come to an end after over 6 months of appeal they've asked her to leave.
Thanks for the reply.
Basically officially the Police should provide a person being cautioned with Annex A and B of a certain Act. (Can't think what it is but I'm right)
This details the jobs that would be affected by a caution, those lists were never shown and she mentioned numerous times the job she was working towards.
This is all done at the station and the police aren't expected to remember them all, they just need to provide the paper work.
She was already at University when the incident happened and the Uni were hopeful that it wouldn't come to this, but the long drawn out procedure has come to an end after over 6 months of appeal they've asked her to leave.
The Act in question is the Home Office Circular 6/2006
Found here:
http://www.knowledgenetwork.gov.uk/HO/circular .nsf/79755433dd36a66980256d4f004d1514/6219d569 2a5aa023802571370054cf4d?OpenDocument
Found here:
http://www.knowledgenetwork.gov.uk/HO/circular .nsf/79755433dd36a66980256d4f004d1514/6219d569 2a5aa023802571370054cf4d?OpenDocument
i think it's going to be very very hard to go back, if not mpossible. You say she would have got off if gone to court, but how do you know? Charachter references mean nothing if somebody shows a propensity to violence. What you seem to forget is even if she did have bruises, her court case would not have been about what he did to her but what she did to him.
also, it is just her word against the polices that they didn't show her paperwork - thye mat have even shown her it but in the heat of the moment she dosen't remember or the drink has clouded her memory. as i said before, even a rescinded caution would show up on a crb check so i really really dont see the point in wasting loads of mney on solicitors etc
also, it is just her word against the polices that they didn't show her paperwork - thye mat have even shown her it but in the heat of the moment she dosen't remember or the drink has clouded her memory. as i said before, even a rescinded caution would show up on a crb check so i really really dont see the point in wasting loads of mney on solicitors etc
The dispute is that the Police didn't follow procedure by showing her the Home Office Circular depicting the jobs it would affect.
She wasn't drunk, she had a few drinks and the incident occured early on during the night.
She spent a night in the cells and was processed in the morning, so it wasn't a heat of the moment thing, or a clouding of judgement as she was stone cold sober and had the night to think about it, that's why she was so vocal about it affecting her job and the Police said it wouldn't.
The issue isn't about the bouncer, as she did bite him but about the way the Police lead her to believe that taking a caution would be acceptable and played it off as nothing.
It is her word against theirs, but that's what happened.
'Even a rescinded caution would show up on a crb check'
I'm lead to believe it wouldn't and have been researching past cases where rescinded cautions meant blank CRBS.
Sources:
http://www.swarb.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5 151
and
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-397368 /Student-pincher-wins-appeal.html
She wasn't drunk, she had a few drinks and the incident occured early on during the night.
She spent a night in the cells and was processed in the morning, so it wasn't a heat of the moment thing, or a clouding of judgement as she was stone cold sober and had the night to think about it, that's why she was so vocal about it affecting her job and the Police said it wouldn't.
The issue isn't about the bouncer, as she did bite him but about the way the Police lead her to believe that taking a caution would be acceptable and played it off as nothing.
It is her word against theirs, but that's what happened.
'Even a rescinded caution would show up on a crb check'
I'm lead to believe it wouldn't and have been researching past cases where rescinded cautions meant blank CRBS.
Sources:
http://www.swarb.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5 151
and
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-397368 /Student-pincher-wins-appeal.html
-- answer removed --
Interesting.
Can't say I know anything about the legalities here but the problem quite obviously is that whilst the police may have got it wrong and may not have followed correct procedure this all happened nearly two years ago. Can it still be addressed? Even if so it's going to be word against word potentially. Unless the policeman / policemen involved openly admit to getting it wrong then I fail to see what evidence there could actually be to prove they did? Was the conversation and caution recorded? If so does that recording still exist?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'd have thought she would have been wise to consult a solicitor at the time. I certainly wouldn't accept a caution or anything else without speaking to one to see where I stood. I'm presuming she didn't speak to one since there's been no mention of it so far.
Can't say I know anything about the legalities here but the problem quite obviously is that whilst the police may have got it wrong and may not have followed correct procedure this all happened nearly two years ago. Can it still be addressed? Even if so it's going to be word against word potentially. Unless the policeman / policemen involved openly admit to getting it wrong then I fail to see what evidence there could actually be to prove they did? Was the conversation and caution recorded? If so does that recording still exist?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I'd have thought she would have been wise to consult a solicitor at the time. I certainly wouldn't accept a caution or anything else without speaking to one to see where I stood. I'm presuming she didn't speak to one since there's been no mention of it so far.
I am not sure if this is helpful, but she could try to go to the PCT and explain the circumstances around the caution.
In fairness, she didn't just walk up to some random stranger and bite him - he had HIS hands on HER first. She should try to explain this to the PCT and university. Failing this, she should use the CAT system to transfer her 2 years of credit on to another course, perhaps one where a CRB isn't needed, or where she could obtain work in a non-nhs placement thereby giving her the opportunity to explain to one person the circumstances surrounding the caution, as opposed to a panel of people.
In fairness, she didn't just walk up to some random stranger and bite him - he had HIS hands on HER first. She should try to explain this to the PCT and university. Failing this, she should use the CAT system to transfer her 2 years of credit on to another course, perhaps one where a CRB isn't needed, or where she could obtain work in a non-nhs placement thereby giving her the opportunity to explain to one person the circumstances surrounding the caution, as opposed to a panel of people.
It is interesting isn't it?
At the time of the caution because the Police said it wouldn't affect here, we trusted them and got on with our lives.
We just wanted to put it behind us, as although she accepted the caution, because the Police played it off as being nothing, we had no reason to seek legal advice or we would have.
At the end of the day, she did bite him and whether right or wrong we accept that, but it's the way that the Police seemingly just played it off as nothing, didn't follow procedure and do their duty.
This caution had significantly derailed her career and all because the Police didn't carry out the simple procedure of showing them part of the Home Office Circular that they should do. (Even when she told them she was worried taking a caution might affect her!)
I understand the Police have a busy and hard job, but the fact they were so vocal that it wouldn't affect her is the point here, it has! We trusted them and now something has to be done about it.
Yes, it's a your word against ours type affair, but we want to fight this to the hilt as we believe they were in the wrong.
She would have never taken a caution if she knew how grave it would be and the Police let us down. Now, because of this she is having to reconsider her career.
There are similar cases that have ended up with a removal of the caution, so that's why we're looking into doing it too.
At the time of the caution because the Police said it wouldn't affect here, we trusted them and got on with our lives.
We just wanted to put it behind us, as although she accepted the caution, because the Police played it off as being nothing, we had no reason to seek legal advice or we would have.
At the end of the day, she did bite him and whether right or wrong we accept that, but it's the way that the Police seemingly just played it off as nothing, didn't follow procedure and do their duty.
This caution had significantly derailed her career and all because the Police didn't carry out the simple procedure of showing them part of the Home Office Circular that they should do. (Even when she told them she was worried taking a caution might affect her!)
I understand the Police have a busy and hard job, but the fact they were so vocal that it wouldn't affect her is the point here, it has! We trusted them and now something has to be done about it.
Yes, it's a your word against ours type affair, but we want to fight this to the hilt as we believe they were in the wrong.
She would have never taken a caution if she knew how grave it would be and the Police let us down. Now, because of this she is having to reconsider her career.
There are similar cases that have ended up with a removal of the caution, so that's why we're looking into doing it too.
Gingerslove - Thank you so much for the advice. :)
At the moment she is looking at other courses, but we didn't know about the CAT score, so thanks.
We are thinking about going to the PCT and also to the Cheif inspector of the Police station were she was arrested. The Caution is just a record on a database and he/she can just remove it, so I believe. I don't think that will happen but I think it's worth a try, by putting our case forward.
Failing that, we're going to seek legal advice, as long as we're still within the time limits.
It just seems a shame that a hardworking member of society should have their job/course taken from them without some kind of face-to-face interview.
Thanks for the supportive and helpful advice. :)
At the moment she is looking at other courses, but we didn't know about the CAT score, so thanks.
We are thinking about going to the PCT and also to the Cheif inspector of the Police station were she was arrested. The Caution is just a record on a database and he/she can just remove it, so I believe. I don't think that will happen but I think it's worth a try, by putting our case forward.
Failing that, we're going to seek legal advice, as long as we're still within the time limits.
It just seems a shame that a hardworking member of society should have their job/course taken from them without some kind of face-to-face interview.
Thanks for the supportive and helpful advice. :)
Hi Quixotic
My partner and I are going through a similar case at the moment where my partner received a caution and the Police said that the caution wouldnt appear on a CRB - well you guessed it, it has! Now the Police are denying even saying it!
I'm taking it further now and have a meeting with the Det Insp about hopefully getting the caution rescinded. Any advice/literature you have would be appreciated.
My partner and I are going through a similar case at the moment where my partner received a caution and the Police said that the caution wouldnt appear on a CRB - well you guessed it, it has! Now the Police are denying even saying it!
I'm taking it further now and have a meeting with the Det Insp about hopefully getting the caution rescinded. Any advice/literature you have would be appreciated.
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