Section 4 Public Order

[h84]

My partner was charged with Section 4 for fighting in the street on saturday night. There were about 15 people fighting and he only got involved because he was trying to stop his friend getting beaten up. Only two people got arrested although 3 riot vansturned up, he did not resist arrest and went quietly asking for the handcuffs not to be used. The police refused this and used excessive force which resulted in his clothing being ripped. They did not handcuff the other person. The police have said that he was only charged because they asked him to stop and he didn't, however atleast 5 witnesses have said the police said nothing just went straight and arrested him. He alsobelieves this to be untrue. He has a conviction from over 10years ago where he was sent down for GBH however he has not been in trouble since.

He is appearing in Court on Monday - does anyone know what the likley outcome will be? Thanks

[uno.who]

If he has one conviction which is over 10 years old then it's unlikely to carry much weight EXCEPT where he received a custodial sentence of >2.5 years.

Outcome depends on whether or not he pleads guilty or not, and whether or not your 5 witnesses intend giving evidence in court! His solicitor should be able to advise him.

PS It's not the prerogative of a person being arrested to decide whether or not handcuffs are appropriate !

[weas]

No it isnt for the person to decide about the handcuffs! but the police cannot be bullies which in my opinion they sometimes are< report the arresting officer by email to the police complaints authority also a letter to the chief constable. inform your solicitor. do not let them get away with it. if you are short of time get the 5 witnesses to write as well the more the better

good luck

[paraffin]

Regarding what weas has advised:

Now, please believe me that I'm not trying to take the side of the Police, nor anyone's for that matter. However, before doing anything rash, you should consider the following:

1: Were any of you under the influence of alcohol? It could have a bearing on any subsequent complaint.
2: Is there any CCTV to "back-up" your claims of the alleged excessive force used.
3: Bearing in mind that you've mentioned "about 15 people fighting", it may seem to a reasonable person that the Police were justified under the circumstances in handcuffing anyone they arrested for fear of theirs, others present, or indeed the arrested person's safety.
4: It's the easiest thing in the world to make a complaint against Police for something which you and/or others may perceive as some kind of wrongdoing. Don't forget, though, that not only would it have to be proved by whoever makes such allegations, but the Police's version of the incident will undoubtedly vary drastically to yours.
5: In the cold light of day, can you, your partner and any of your witnesses honestly say that none of you did anything wrong? If you CAN, then go ahead and make your complaints. But if you have any doubts, given that your partner you say has been charged with a serious Public Order Offence, then I would think again if I were you.
6: The Law is there to protect everyone, and that also includes the Police. They are not entitled to act outside it, but neither is anyone else.

[uno.who]

h84 - Paraffin is absolutely correct.

Complain to the Police if you think you're justified but be prepared to be interviewed again (along with your 5 witnesses). The suggestion that your 5 friends should write in too is nonsense as the Police are obliged to investigate your complaint on its own merits.

If there is CCTV footage this could bolster your case but it could also assist the police in identifying other persons present. Are you convinced that your 5 friends took no actual part in the affray and will be happy to be identified to the Police (I'd check with them first).

Please be aware that your complaint will have no bearing on the outcome of your boyfriend's court case.

[h84]

Hi All

Thanks for your answers. I only mentioned the handcuffing because he was not acting out and did not object to being arrested as he did not wantto make the situation worse for himself. The point I was making wathat they used excessive force on him and not on the other person arrested. Thy also did not arrest anyone else involved apart from these two. As soon as the police came the fighting stopped and now one tried to carry on.

We are not interested in making a complaint against the police, my brother is an actual police officer so I know how the system works and I also now that some officers feel they have the power to act how they want because they have a badge on their shoulder. All of this is irrelevant.

All I want to know is is what the outcome of the course case will be. My partner was charged before he was interviewed and the officer told him he was charged because he did not listen to their warning, everyoe I have spoken to has contradicted this. However, in the officers statements it doesn't say that my partner was using excessive force or was hard to retain or anything like that and both the boys statements match as to what the chain of events were.

I am just worried that as this crime can technically hold a custodial sentence of max 6 months that because my partner did go to prison for gbh 10 years ago they may look more dimly on him. He is pleading guilty, he hasn't denied his part in this and he hasn't tried to blame anyone else. He is taking full responsibility but I am worried it won't be enough if the court want to make an example out of him!

[bobs1975]

I thought you initially said your partner was trying to defend his friend. If this is still the case then don't roll over so quickly. Unless there are some circumstances where your partner went beyond defending.

[h84]

He was trying to defend a friend, he wasn't even there when the initial fight broke out. He came back from the kebab shop to the bus and there were 5 people betingup this other boy. He stepped in with some others and ended up getting head butted. He fought back, the police came and he was arrested.

There was a boy on the floor unconscious (his friend) and the people who were kicking him in the head wre allowed to just walk away!

[bobs1975]

If what you say is correct and there's CCTV footage available then why is he pleading guilty? Sounds like there's grounds for self defence and defence of another person. You have a solicitor right? A solicitor should be able to advise you here.

It also seems very strange to be charged before interview and investigation into the incident. Did your partner have a solicitor present at the police station?

A good solicitor will be able to advise if the correct police procedures were followed and if not this can help your defence.

[paraffin]

Hello again,

Forgive me, but I'm a wee bit confused by everything you have said:
For example, you say that your partner was "charged before he was interviewed". Sorry, but that wouldn't happen.
Don't you mean that he was arrested for failing to heed the Police's warning? That would make sense under the circumstances.
In which case he would then be taken to the Police Station, booked in and, if for example he had been drinking, he'd be detained until he sobered up. Then he would be interviewed. And after that it would be up to a man called the Custody Officer (usually a Sergeant) to decide whether or not there was enough evidence to charge him. In your partner's case, this seems to be what happened.
He would then have his photograph + fingerprints taken, plus some other details, the Police would fill out various forms, then he would be formally charged, be given a copy of the charge sheet and given Bail to appear at Court at a later date.
It's obviously Magistrates Court he has to go to, right ? Okay, even though Section 4 can carry a 6 months custodial sentence, it doesn't mean that your partner would actually get that. He hasn't actually been CONVICTED of anything. That is a matter for the Court to decide.
I'll continue on another sheet.

[paraffin]

(Continued)
If, as you say, he has one conviction from 10 years ago but hasn't been in trouble since, the latter fact should go in his favour. Just because he has the GBH conviction does not mean that he would be, as you think, "be made an example of".
Courts deal with facts and are not allowed to punish retrospectively. Each case is tried on its so-called merits and the evidence available.
None of us could predict the outcome but, as a rough guide, if convicted he may receive perhaps a fine, perhaps some community service, and in extreme cases a custodial sentence.
These Public Order offences are very commonplace and people regularly appear in Court charged with such offences, therefore your partner is not unique in this respect.
If I was forced to guess the outcome, based purely on what information you've given, I'd suggest that your partner would probably receive a fine IF CONVICTED. Don't forget, he may be acquitted. Who knows?

[bobs1975]

Can I just add in there - during the booking in procedure he will be asked if he would like a solicitor. If he answered yes then he will meet with the solicitor before being interviewed. The police will give the solicitor some but not all information about his arrest. It's during this meeting with the solicitor you discuss whether or not the information matches with your side of the story. If the story doesn't match then the solicitor might advise you give a no comment interview. This can be seen in 2 ways by the courts. Either you have something to hide or you were waiting for further evidence to come to light. This is if CCTV footage is still pending. The solicitor will also be present during the interview.