Crosswords0 min ago
Right of way
When I purchased my property there was a road between my house and my neighbours property which we both jointly own and is clearly marked on land registry plans. The road is presently overgrown and muddy and used for people taking a short cut and leaving rubbish. I contacted planning dept who confirmed I did not need planning permission to change the use of the said road to garden use and I duly erected a fence on the half of the road which belongs to us. However the Highways Dept have turned up and stated as people have walked up this road over time I have to leave it for them to do so. Even if it only means people have to walk a few hundred meters to use the adopted road and footpath. Do I have any rights to retain this land as my own and use it as garden?
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It depends.
What, precisely, are they saying - that they are proposing to endorse an application for a public footpath through there - because that is the implication.
Public footpaths come about through members of the public having used the path for a continuous period of at least 20 years. It doesn't have to be the same person - it can be a series of people making up a total period of at least 20 years.
Ask them this question directly.
Has it been over 20 years?
What, precisely, are they saying - that they are proposing to endorse an application for a public footpath through there - because that is the implication.
Public footpaths come about through members of the public having used the path for a continuous period of at least 20 years. It doesn't have to be the same person - it can be a series of people making up a total period of at least 20 years.
Ask them this question directly.
Has it been over 20 years?
Interesting. One wonders whether they have had a specific request from local neighbours (who use the path) to do this. The process is that a bunch of residents make a claim with evidence, the Rights of Way Committee investigate and make a recommendation.
Here's something from Doncaster Council about the process - merely picked out at random because they are rather more forthcoming about putting info up on their website.
http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/Leisure_in_Doncast er/Outdoor_Life/Public_Rights_of_Way/Public_Ri ghts_of_Way_Claims/Public_Rights_of_Way_claims .asp
Find out from them whether a formal application has been made. You can anyway attempt to block the route - its your own land, damn it, until someone confirms there IS a public right of way across it.
How wide is this strip anyway? - footpaths generally have to be 1 metre wide. The situation is messy because the ownership of the alleged public path is shared between you and your neighbour. Why isn't he blocking his bit up?
It may be possible to do a deal whereby the path gets diverted onto his bit of land if he isn't fussed. Or if that fails and the strip is wide, you may be able to gift part of it to be dedicated to be a (one metre) path and you get to fence off the rest.
Lots of opportunities here.
Here's something from Doncaster Council about the process - merely picked out at random because they are rather more forthcoming about putting info up on their website.
http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/Leisure_in_Doncast er/Outdoor_Life/Public_Rights_of_Way/Public_Ri ghts_of_Way_Claims/Public_Rights_of_Way_claims .asp
Find out from them whether a formal application has been made. You can anyway attempt to block the route - its your own land, damn it, until someone confirms there IS a public right of way across it.
How wide is this strip anyway? - footpaths generally have to be 1 metre wide. The situation is messy because the ownership of the alleged public path is shared between you and your neighbour. Why isn't he blocking his bit up?
It may be possible to do a deal whereby the path gets diverted onto his bit of land if he isn't fussed. Or if that fails and the strip is wide, you may be able to gift part of it to be dedicated to be a (one metre) path and you get to fence off the rest.
Lots of opportunities here.
Have had lengthy call with Highway Dept this morning. The road is definately not adopted and is not a definitive right of way but they believe it is part of the highway network! They are inviting us to a meeting with senior highway manager, council solicitor and planning dept for a meeting but they seem adamant that we have no rights to fence off our land. I pointed out there is still a right of way and even suggested we would leave at least 50 cm of our share of the road to ensure that if neighbour takes his and leaves 50 cm then there is still a 1 meter footpath but they seem adamant that the whole road is left open. Surely there are some rights for homeowners. HELP!
Even more interesting.
I suspect you are going to need proper legal help on this one, if you can afford it.
If you are going to go to a meeting with them, take a friend to keep notes and just LISTEN to what they say - don't offer anything. You are the one in the position with a legal document that says you own the land - so just stick to restating that - and ask them on what basis they believe there is a ROW across this land.
The definitive map and statement relates to footpaths, bridleways, restricted byways and BOATs. Here's some stuff on these - this taken from Hampshire, who seem to explain it rather well. It is part of the LA's job to maintain the Definitive Map and statement - usually the Council Council do this (or Unitary Authority where there isn't a County Council). This does not relate to Highways.
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/row/locating-row/defi nitive-map.htm
Your suits seem to be confirming that it isn't part of this, so by implication, they are admitting it isn't a public footpath, bridleway etc. over your land.
So the implication is they argue it is part of the public highway. It isn't adopted - they admit that (an adopted road is one maintained at public expense). You therefore need to ask them on what basis they believe the land is part of the public highway, reasserting that you hold the land title to the land in question.
Then report back.
I suspect you are going to need proper legal help on this one, if you can afford it.
If you are going to go to a meeting with them, take a friend to keep notes and just LISTEN to what they say - don't offer anything. You are the one in the position with a legal document that says you own the land - so just stick to restating that - and ask them on what basis they believe there is a ROW across this land.
The definitive map and statement relates to footpaths, bridleways, restricted byways and BOATs. Here's some stuff on these - this taken from Hampshire, who seem to explain it rather well. It is part of the LA's job to maintain the Definitive Map and statement - usually the Council Council do this (or Unitary Authority where there isn't a County Council). This does not relate to Highways.
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/row/locating-row/defi nitive-map.htm
Your suits seem to be confirming that it isn't part of this, so by implication, they are admitting it isn't a public footpath, bridleway etc. over your land.
So the implication is they argue it is part of the public highway. It isn't adopted - they admit that (an adopted road is one maintained at public expense). You therefore need to ask them on what basis they believe the land is part of the public highway, reasserting that you hold the land title to the land in question.
Then report back.
They are refusing to discuss it with me or give me any inclination as to their argument and keep stating they need time to research it and will discuss it at the meeting when they have built a case. The only thing I can glean from them is that people have used it for a period of time and therefore it is part of the highway network. I think I need to take a legal represententative to the meeting but this is quite a specialised area of law and finding a solicitor who deals with this on a regular basis could be quite tricky.
I assume you have not erected the bollards preventing car access. If the Council have gone to the time and expense of doing this, they must think it is part of responsibility.
If your aim is to stop people using this right of way, then I suspect you will not get a favourable result at the planning meeting. If you want to use the land, but are willing to let people across it, then you and the council can probably work something out.
If your aim is to stop people using this right of way, then I suspect you will not get a favourable result at the planning meeting. If you want to use the land, but are willing to let people across it, then you and the council can probably work something out.
PS As far as I know it is a physical impossibility that part of the public highway is in private ownership.
It is possible (in rare situations) that a road that is adopted (maintained) by the local authority is still in private ownership, but this is the other way around.
It is also possible that private roadways are subject to Road Traffic Act regulations (for example - supermarket car-parks) but, again, this is not your situation.
It is possible (in rare situations) that a road that is adopted (maintained) by the local authority is still in private ownership, but this is the other way around.
It is also possible that private roadways are subject to Road Traffic Act regulations (for example - supermarket car-parks) but, again, this is not your situation.
OK - just seen your last post.
I think they've just realised they have to go running back to their lawyers. I stand by all my previous statements.
I think they are in a mess - unless your land title is defective. Is your land registered at the Land Registry, by the way - it helps but it is not essential.
I think they've just realised they have to go running back to their lawyers. I stand by all my previous statements.
I think they are in a mess - unless your land title is defective. Is your land registered at the Land Registry, by the way - it helps but it is not essential.
What I suspect happened is this:
This is a track that links two bits of public carriageway. I know of dozens of such situations and I expect that you do too. Often different developments were separated such that it was impossible to drive a car between the two (hence the use of bollards) but access by foot or bike was possible. Sometimes such links separated 'private' housing from 'council' housing.
What should have happened is that when the land was developed, and the roadways were adopted by the local authority, the land that formed the bridge link should have been ensured that it was part of the highway (just not adopted). Again I have seen such links before eventually pulled apart to allow free access. In other situations, existing through-roads are stopped up by bollards to stop rat-runs.
All these situations should be similar the land is part of the public highway. The public highway, BTW, includes the fottpaths and verges - again you probably knew that.
In your situation, aforementioned council assumed the situation was as above - with no land registry title to the link land - the land just lapses into being aprt of the highway - allbeit adopted (unmaintained).
Imagine then their surprise when you pop up with a title plan.
There are various ways you could play this - but it is probably best if you are able to work in conjunction with the neighbour that owns the other half.
Once you've a meeting (at which I suggest you say nothing other then show the title plan - they will have checked this out for themselves anywhere by then - and reassert your right to fence it off) let them write back and see what they say.
Assuming they conceed your ownership, options could be (but not for the first meeting):
Block it off (you maybe need to consider the way neighbours may perceive this)
Negotiate to sell off a strip to the local council - you keep the rest. There is potentially money to be made
This is a track that links two bits of public carriageway. I know of dozens of such situations and I expect that you do too. Often different developments were separated such that it was impossible to drive a car between the two (hence the use of bollards) but access by foot or bike was possible. Sometimes such links separated 'private' housing from 'council' housing.
What should have happened is that when the land was developed, and the roadways were adopted by the local authority, the land that formed the bridge link should have been ensured that it was part of the highway (just not adopted). Again I have seen such links before eventually pulled apart to allow free access. In other situations, existing through-roads are stopped up by bollards to stop rat-runs.
All these situations should be similar the land is part of the public highway. The public highway, BTW, includes the fottpaths and verges - again you probably knew that.
In your situation, aforementioned council assumed the situation was as above - with no land registry title to the link land - the land just lapses into being aprt of the highway - allbeit adopted (unmaintained).
Imagine then their surprise when you pop up with a title plan.
There are various ways you could play this - but it is probably best if you are able to work in conjunction with the neighbour that owns the other half.
Once you've a meeting (at which I suggest you say nothing other then show the title plan - they will have checked this out for themselves anywhere by then - and reassert your right to fence it off) let them write back and see what they say.
Assuming they conceed your ownership, options could be (but not for the first meeting):
Block it off (you maybe need to consider the way neighbours may perceive this)
Negotiate to sell off a strip to the local council - you keep the rest. There is potentially money to be made
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