ChatterBank9 mins ago
Should The Conservative Party Disband In Order For A More Coherent Political Construct To Emerge Before The Next General Election?
Toryphobia in the UK has now peaked in the UK. The weaponised NHS junior doctors now representing Skargill's view that however large their majority any Conservative government has no idealistic authority to govern this country.
The SNP who have long used 'Tory' as a reflex hate word at every opportunity see no problem in going to Westminster and voting against something for England that they have approved and made law in Scotland.
For myself I would join an English version of the SNP tomorrow. I have always voted Conservative because I felt I need to to keep the party who have bankrupted this country twice in my lifetime out of power.
Now even the House of Lords is prepared to give them the finger is it time for them to log off and let a new force in British squalid politics emerge?
The SNP who have long used 'Tory' as a reflex hate word at every opportunity see no problem in going to Westminster and voting against something for England that they have approved and made law in Scotland.
For myself I would join an English version of the SNP tomorrow. I have always voted Conservative because I felt I need to to keep the party who have bankrupted this country twice in my lifetime out of power.
Now even the House of Lords is prepared to give them the finger is it time for them to log off and let a new force in British squalid politics emerge?
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The English version of the SNP and Plaid Cymru gets called right wing fascist Nazis. By the left wing socialist Nazis. Until England say enough is enough it will not change. A generation of benefits needy (fostered by the liberals and labour)are cowed into submission by the threat of having their handouts monitored. Until the English people decide to be as vociferous as the Scots and Welsh it will not change.
The trouble with any attempt at centrism is that everyone's first thought is the Lib Dems. {mouthwash; gargle-argle-argle-ptui}
There's this:-
https:/
But who knows anything about them?
There's this:-
https:/
But who knows anything about them?
l don't want centrism I want realism. All of us are poised on a precipice where the yawning gap between religious and or political emotive idealistic political rhetoric will drive us to disaster. There is no hope for the political constructs we have to choose from in England we can only lose.
Our bosses grew rich on Eastern European labour. Because for instance 1.5 billion pounds pa leaves our economy to just Poland we need to divide into coherent political groupings that reflect how the ill-conceived throw of the dice of open-door inward migration across the four kingdoms of the UK are reflected in our own communities.
This is not happening now.
Our bosses grew rich on Eastern European labour. Because for instance 1.5 billion pounds pa leaves our economy to just Poland we need to divide into coherent political groupings that reflect how the ill-conceived throw of the dice of open-door inward migration across the four kingdoms of the UK are reflected in our own communities.
This is not happening now.
@colmc54
//Because for instance 1.5 billion pounds pa leaves our economy to just Poland//
Maybe so but they've got to spend that somewhere. If UK home-improvements companies can get a foothold in Poland, some of that profit might come back here. (I'm guessing they'll buy German cars, US/Korean mobiles and electronics).
//
we need to divide
//
Divide? Isn't there enough political division in this country already? Even within individual parties?
// into coherent political groupings //
Divide but then cohere? Sorry, you've lost me, there.
//
that reflect how the […] open-door inward migration across the […] UK are reflected in our own communities.
//
Errm? You mean the migrants should have their own political parties, to represent their needs in this wonderful democracy we have, where the leadership are not corrupt, or self-serving or murderous of their own people?
//Because for instance 1.5 billion pounds pa leaves our economy to just Poland//
Maybe so but they've got to spend that somewhere. If UK home-improvements companies can get a foothold in Poland, some of that profit might come back here. (I'm guessing they'll buy German cars, US/Korean mobiles and electronics).
//
we need to divide
//
Divide? Isn't there enough political division in this country already? Even within individual parties?
// into coherent political groupings //
Divide but then cohere? Sorry, you've lost me, there.
//
that reflect how the […] open-door inward migration across the […] UK are reflected in our own communities.
//
Errm? You mean the migrants should have their own political parties, to represent their needs in this wonderful democracy we have, where the leadership are not corrupt, or self-serving or murderous of their own people?
I hope Hypognosis was listening to the Today programme this AM especially the barnstorming interview of Ian Duncan Smith. Also Welby's comments were reported.
Might I also supply this lead,
http://
All that money leaving Britain never to return.
Might I also supply this lead,
http://
All that money leaving Britain never to return.
Since Heath took the country into the EEC, the Tory party has been fractured. At times, under John Major, it was ungovernable. Cameron is good at papering over the cracks, but the party perpetually looks like it is about to split.
By offering a referendum, Cameron has made a final last ditch attempt to keep the party together. But it could go wrong. If the Eurosceptics lose the vote, but become even more rabid, they may have to go and join UKIP, or form a new party of their own.
Eother way, the EU referendum is more about deciding the future of the conservative party than it is about our relationship with Europe.
By offering a referendum, Cameron has made a final last ditch attempt to keep the party together. But it could go wrong. If the Eurosceptics lose the vote, but become even more rabid, they may have to go and join UKIP, or form a new party of their own.
Eother way, the EU referendum is more about deciding the future of the conservative party than it is about our relationship with Europe.
If we ignore the weird Skargill bit (isn't that the bloke who plays Thor?) - and just look at the question title, there's a fun idea in there.
I think Yes - but it would have to be done at the same time as every other party, blindfolded.
The Tories are always going to pull themselves apart on the EU question
Labour will always struggle along the old/new labour divide
There's a moderate majority which sits between the Tories and the Labour, which, if they formed a new party, would be legitimate and useful - with fewer of the "sell off the NHS bed you're dying on"/"scrap trident and paint a target on the queen's forehead" issues which put us all off ...
Then there could be a better expression of the views of those on the further-left and further-right in opposition, mostly, so everyone might be a bit better represented?
I think Yes - but it would have to be done at the same time as every other party, blindfolded.
The Tories are always going to pull themselves apart on the EU question
Labour will always struggle along the old/new labour divide
There's a moderate majority which sits between the Tories and the Labour, which, if they formed a new party, would be legitimate and useful - with fewer of the "sell off the NHS bed you're dying on"/"scrap trident and paint a target on the queen's forehead" issues which put us all off ...
Then there could be a better expression of the views of those on the further-left and further-right in opposition, mostly, so everyone might be a bit better represented?
@Togo
Evidently, Adams didn't understand what the δεμος (demos) part of "democracy" meant. He sounds like a "my way, or the high way" kind of guy. More of a "crat" than a "demo-".
@colmc54
//All that money leaving Britain never to return.//
I'm not disputing that this is happening. I've griped, elsewhere, about subsidising EU farmers, paving eastern european dirt roads, enabling trucks to ship more French/Dutch/German white goods etc., whilst our goods have more miles and the chunnel eating into our margins.
Although I have broadly socialist leanings (just fairness for all, in general), this is the part I don't like. When wealth is 'redistributed' to a part of the geography that benefits me/us little - or not at all - and benefits them with imporovements that people on my area never get to receive. So, our taxes build nice roads across former eastern bloc coutries while we (rural backwater) have to dodge potholes until tourist season approaches.
Even outside of EU, the same thing will happen: rural taxpayers help London and the south east to beef up infrastructure, which only serves to encourage employers to avoid rural areas even more. We have to migrate as much as Syrians do and join the big competition to work for the lowest wage possible.
Evidently, Adams didn't understand what the δεμος (demos) part of "democracy" meant. He sounds like a "my way, or the high way" kind of guy. More of a "crat" than a "demo-".
@colmc54
//All that money leaving Britain never to return.//
I'm not disputing that this is happening. I've griped, elsewhere, about subsidising EU farmers, paving eastern european dirt roads, enabling trucks to ship more French/Dutch/German white goods etc., whilst our goods have more miles and the chunnel eating into our margins.
Although I have broadly socialist leanings (just fairness for all, in general), this is the part I don't like. When wealth is 'redistributed' to a part of the geography that benefits me/us little - or not at all - and benefits them with imporovements that people on my area never get to receive. So, our taxes build nice roads across former eastern bloc coutries while we (rural backwater) have to dodge potholes until tourist season approaches.
Even outside of EU, the same thing will happen: rural taxpayers help London and the south east to beef up infrastructure, which only serves to encourage employers to avoid rural areas even more. We have to migrate as much as Syrians do and join the big competition to work for the lowest wage possible.
@Gromit & ABEd
I wish the Tories would just get on with it and split, just do that the general public can know what they are getting, in their constituency.
My ideal setup would be 650-odd independents, who seek concensus, one law at a time but that lacks key features, like overall direction and leadership. It would also be "too much information" for the general public to keep track of individual MP's policy preferences. Political parties are, thus, merely a convenient shorthand for areas of broad agreement.
There's also the aspect that prospective candidates know which side their bread is buttered and have to cleave to a mainstream party to even stand a chance of employment. That is the seed of party splits because they have to compromise one or more core beliefs to 'fit in' on the bandwagon.
Party recruiters need to be much more stringent. It's £60k at stake, not "oh, you're photogenic, you'll do".
I wish the Tories would just get on with it and split, just do that the general public can know what they are getting, in their constituency.
My ideal setup would be 650-odd independents, who seek concensus, one law at a time but that lacks key features, like overall direction and leadership. It would also be "too much information" for the general public to keep track of individual MP's policy preferences. Political parties are, thus, merely a convenient shorthand for areas of broad agreement.
There's also the aspect that prospective candidates know which side their bread is buttered and have to cleave to a mainstream party to even stand a chance of employment. That is the seed of party splits because they have to compromise one or more core beliefs to 'fit in' on the bandwagon.
Party recruiters need to be much more stringent. It's £60k at stake, not "oh, you're photogenic, you'll do".
Don't you think there are now irreconcilable political differences between the Kingdoms of the UK? There would be more democratic representation overall if either England or Scotland voted to leave the UK.
What is going to happen on the Trident renewal vote later this year, will it be like the Sunday trading vote the other night?
What is going to happen on the Trident renewal vote later this year, will it be like the Sunday trading vote the other night?
Colmc54
The Government does not need the SNP to vote with it, they have a majority of 17. There were 27 Conservatives who failed to support the Government, which is why the vote was lost. It had nothing to do with the SNP.
On Trident, I doubt there would be 27 rebels, so the Govercnment should win that one easily.
The Government does not need the SNP to vote with it, they have a majority of 17. There were 27 Conservatives who failed to support the Government, which is why the vote was lost. It had nothing to do with the SNP.
On Trident, I doubt there would be 27 rebels, so the Govercnment should win that one easily.
@colmc54
//
Don't you think there are now irreconcilable political differences between the Kingdoms of the UK?
//
I don't know about "irreconcileable" but I do know that the regions, distant from the southeast, have, in the past, had to offer tax breaks to attract jobs and, as South Wales knows, only too well, the day that tax break runs out, the company packs up and leaves these (by this stage dependent) communities in the lurch. They will not tolerate full-rate corporate taxation in *any* country and surf from one discount zone to another.
The devolved parliaments acknowledge that permanently reduced rates/corp taxes are the only way to go. If Wales and Scotland can't grab as many jobs as they can, the rest of their devolved government function becomes increasingly pointless. As the phrase goes: "you had one job!"
Note: I am making a basic assumption here that all companies want to set up HQ in or as close to London as possible but that's only to assure the widest labour pool possible. If the work is divvied up right, they can set up in the regions, not have to compete with O.T.T. London salaries, yet not worry overly about being unable to find high-skilled recruits, in the narrower labour pool.
//
There would be more democratic representation overall if either England or Scotland voted to leave the UK.
//
If any one nation stepped out, it wouldn't be "U", any more. If England stepped out then calling the disconnected remains "United something" would just appear silly (to the rest of the world). A celt theme though… ;-)
I don't know if there ever was a time when people just paid their taxes without a second thought, because it was for the king, queen or the country's benefit but, in recent decades, there is ever more awareness of the pain of it and more concetration on exactly where it is going. We find it is going "away", to London and the southeast or syphoned off by Europe. That, I think is what drove the desire for localism, devolved government close to where we are, ensuring our taxes are disbursed somewhere which is at least *close by*.
Conservatives should treat "collectivism" as anathema to them but that is exactly the manner in which our taxes are being handled. We pay; someone else seems to be benefiting.
//
Don't you think there are now irreconcilable political differences between the Kingdoms of the UK?
//
I don't know about "irreconcileable" but I do know that the regions, distant from the southeast, have, in the past, had to offer tax breaks to attract jobs and, as South Wales knows, only too well, the day that tax break runs out, the company packs up and leaves these (by this stage dependent) communities in the lurch. They will not tolerate full-rate corporate taxation in *any* country and surf from one discount zone to another.
The devolved parliaments acknowledge that permanently reduced rates/corp taxes are the only way to go. If Wales and Scotland can't grab as many jobs as they can, the rest of their devolved government function becomes increasingly pointless. As the phrase goes: "you had one job!"
Note: I am making a basic assumption here that all companies want to set up HQ in or as close to London as possible but that's only to assure the widest labour pool possible. If the work is divvied up right, they can set up in the regions, not have to compete with O.T.T. London salaries, yet not worry overly about being unable to find high-skilled recruits, in the narrower labour pool.
//
There would be more democratic representation overall if either England or Scotland voted to leave the UK.
//
If any one nation stepped out, it wouldn't be "U", any more. If England stepped out then calling the disconnected remains "United something" would just appear silly (to the rest of the world). A celt theme though… ;-)
I don't know if there ever was a time when people just paid their taxes without a second thought, because it was for the king, queen or the country's benefit but, in recent decades, there is ever more awareness of the pain of it and more concetration on exactly where it is going. We find it is going "away", to London and the southeast or syphoned off by Europe. That, I think is what drove the desire for localism, devolved government close to where we are, ensuring our taxes are disbursed somewhere which is at least *close by*.
Conservatives should treat "collectivism" as anathema to them but that is exactly the manner in which our taxes are being handled. We pay; someone else seems to be benefiting.
Thanks Gromit but I was aware of that. I think there are careerists in every party who put their standing in their constituency and their tenure in what are often marginal seats before the interests of their party. This effect is most conspicuous in the current ranks of the Conservatives because their majority is so small.
What is new, and in my opinion despicable is the spectacle of the SNP with their over-representation at Westminster hating the the 'Tory' Westminster government so much that they voted against a bill concerning England and not Scotland when they had voted in favour of and passed their own bill on Sunday trading for Scotland.
What is new, and in my opinion despicable is the spectacle of the SNP with their over-representation at Westminster hating the the 'Tory' Westminster government so much that they voted against a bill concerning England and not Scotland when they had voted in favour of and passed their own bill on Sunday trading for Scotland.
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